Episode 52 – Graduate Job Podcast – Greatest Hits Part 1

Episode 52 of the Graduate Job Podcast, is part of 1 of a 2 part retrospective where I include some of my favourite short clips from my previous 50 episodes. Every episode is of course a winner and packed full of great insights to help you get your dream job, but in these 2 specials, I wanted to pick out some short clips which I enjoy that you might not have come across before. We explore the importance of values with Jane Sunley and David Shindler, the criticality of having a ‘Why’ with motivational speaker Brad Burton, while Jennifer Holloway touches upon why it is crucial to be true to yourself in your job search. Career coaches John Lees and Richard Maun meanwhile share brilliant insights into how to network and have great conversations, which are going to turbocharge your job hunt. Karen Kelsky shares her thoughts on why getting a job can be like dating before Simon Reichwald explores how you can differentiate yourself to ensure that you stand out in your job applications. No matter where you are in your job search, this is an episode which you are not going to want to miss. As always, all links to everything we discuss and a full transcript are available in the show notes.   Right, let’s get straight to the good stuff, and part 1 of my greatest hits.

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • Why you need think to think about the importance of your values BEFORE you start applying for work
  • The ONE question to ask which is guaranteed to help you on your job search
  • Why getting a job is like dating
  • How thinking about your personal brand can set you apart from all other candidates
  • Why a 2:1 won’t set you apart, and why differentiating yourself is so important to find a graduate job
  • The importance of having a ‘why’ that keeps you going as you look for work
  • Why being yourself is crucial to finding a job which will make you happy in the long run

SELECTED LINKS:

    • Check out the ‘How to Get a Graduate Job’ step-by-step online course at https://howtogetagraduatejob.com/
    • Don’t even think about applying for graduate jobs until you’ve read my free guide, ‘The 5 steps you must take before applying for graduate jobs’. Click here NOW. It will completely change the way you apply for jobs!
    • Would you like a free 30-minute video coaching call? Simply select a time that works here https://calendly.com/gradjob/ We can go over your CV, application, or anything that you are struggling with.
    • Assessment Day – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show
    • Career Gym – Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!
    • Job Test Prep – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show

Transcript – Episode 52 – Graduate Job Podcast – Greatest Hits Part 1

James: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your weekly home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each week I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, entrepreneurs, coaches and bloggers who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had a decade ago when I graduated.

And this week on the Graduate Job Podcast for episode 52 I have some very special guests….well actually I have a treat for you, I don’t just have 1 special guest….I don’t have 2, not 3…..I’ve got 9. Yes you heard me right 9 brilliant guests. You see this today is episode 52, and what this means is that over the previous 51 episodes I have actually had 52 amazing guests. Now each of my guests has been brilliant, insightful, witty, engaging and if you have a day and half spare you can listen to the 36 hours of brilliant content. I naturally think you should but I realise that that might not be realistic. The problem with skipping episodes is that you miss things. You miss nuggets, gems, insights which could be the difference in allowing you to get the job, and could change your life. For example unless you’re looking for a job in property you might not have been drawn to my interview with Rob Bence in episode 36, and that would be a shame, because it is crammed full of great tips which will help you impress and get a job no matter what industry you’re applying to. Another example is my interview with Karen Kelsky in episode 29, which was about how to get a job after doing a PHd. Now if you skipped this one you missed brilliant insights such as how to identity your skills, the mindset of job hunting and why looking for a job is like dating, all clips which I know you are going to enjoy. So since we hit the half century mark I thought it would be good to have a retrospective couple of episodes where we include some of my favourite clips, from a wide range of guests that you might not have come across. A job seekers pick n mix greatest hits if you like, where I’ve taken some of my most choice clips, and weaved them into a bit of a theme for you today.

So, lets kick off this cavalcade of stars ….

Now, if you’re listening to this I guess it’s because you want a job, but…..have you ever thought about your values? Yep, your values….Not sure exactly what I mean? I could it explain it to you, but let me leave it to Jane Sunley, my guest from episode 25, who explains it all better than I could. Jane over to you.

James:  And linked then to the happiness and being happy at work, how important then do you think values are, people’s personal values, in terms of the work they should be doing?

Jane:     Two things, I think.  First of all it’s important to know what your own values are and people go, what does that mean?  Your values are the things that are important to you in life, at work, and so on and so forth.  So for instance, it might be freedom.  It might be having fun at work.  It might be money.  It might be having structure.  So, as a simple example, if you want really good structure, don’t go work in a small entrepreneurial business where everybody mucks in and it’s quite unstructured.   And ditto, you know, if you want freedom don’t go and work for a very, very structured environment because you’re not going to be happy.  And on my website, janesunley.com, there’s a free tool which we will never hassle you or contact you or anything, it’s just to make the world a better place, really but there’s a free values tool that you can go and prioritize your values.  It takes about 10 minutes or so.  Once you know what your own values and what’s important to you are, then you can start to look for an environment or a company that aligns with your values.  And it’s almost like when you go for an interview you’re going to be interviewing them in a way as much as they’re interviewing you.  And those are the kinds of things you want to find out, will I be able to fulfil my own values within this organization; so, so important.

And I will just mention that when I do coaching and I do a manual version, or I used to before I had it online, about eliciting people’s values, the things that they think of last usually when we put them into priority order end up being on the top of the list.  So it’s not always in the front of your mind the things that really, really matter and that’s why you need to sit and give it some thought.

James:  That’s interesting.  And the links to the value checker will be on the show notes so I’ll link to them.  I did it myself this morning and it was interesting.  I talked with Jane before we started recording and one of the options it was money or fun and I was looking at the screen thinking, hum, what am I more interested in?  And it’s, you know, difficult decisions like that because you can, if you go for a job which might be cool and great fun but if you’re very low paid or not getting paid, the two values might be then in competition.

Jane:  Yeah.

James:  It can be difficult.

Jane:     Of course these things will evolve over time.  I mean, you should probably do it once a year, really, because it might be that right now you live in a home with your parents or the money is less important so you go for the fun but it might be in a few years time you want to move out or, I don’t know, find a partner, have a baby or whatever, and then money becomes more important.  So I think it’s important to keep reviewing this because it changes.

James:  So once people have got their values and they know they’re prioritized and they’ve got an idea of what they really, their core values are, how then would they, should they begin to start using them in their job search?

Jane:     Well, I think, some people have a bit in mind of what they want to know.  But I know an awful lot of people that have got their….what they want to do, sorry.  There’s an awful lot of people have no idea about what they want to do. So in that case, that’s about saying, okay, there are my values.  Now let me think about what I’m good at and what strengths I’ve got and what experience I’ve got, what I can do with it and I wouldn’t get too hung up on the actual job title but then if you go and start to research companies, you should be able to see from their websites and Google searching and all the rest of it, what they’re values are.  You’re able to see from the tone.  Some of them, great, put them on the website, fantastic.    They tick.  You should probably give priority to those companies who have defined the values and are out there saying, this is what we’re about.  This is what we stand for because it’s quite easy then to say, yeah, I would really fit in there or do you know what, I’m not interested in a company like that.  So, if you can find a company that’s quite transparent, then that really helps.  And if not, as I say, just for the signs.  If you go on the website and it looks very, very corporate and all the rest of it, if those sort of values are in your value set, then great, go work in the corporate environment.  If it’s very cool and fun and a bit laid back and a bit funky and all the rest of it, then maybe that fits your value set.  So it’s very important to find an environment in which you can thrive and survive because you might be the best most talented employee in the world but if you’re in the wrong environment, you’re going to bomb and that happens all the time.  And then people lose confidence and it ruins their careers.  So think about environment.

James: Thankyou to Jane Sunley. As she said, your working environment is crucial to being happy at work, you don’t want to be working somewhere you aren’t happy, and its best to try and figure this out before you start, so think about those values and do check out her values tool, you can find links to that, and her episode 25 in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/greatesthits1. So there you go, an appetiser to the topic of values. Still not convinced they are important? In case I’ll hand over to David Shindler my guest on episode 6.

David:   And I think values are really important throughout this as well.  That’s another area that we haven’t touched upon but, understanding what’s really important to you is a really good compass for people.  So, even if you don’t know where you’re going and what you actually specifically want to do, understanding the kind of, your own values helps you to identify the kind of environment you want to be in.  So, for me, my family background and everything about me has been around quality, justice, fairness.  So, I knew I always wanted to be within an organization that cares about its employees, that did good, has a purpose and so on because that fitted with my personal values.  It affects the way I do business now with other organizations because I expect certain standards or behavior in business terms because of that whole value set, and I will go the extra mile to help others and I kind of expect it in return, I suppose, in some ways.  So yes, standards and value, etcetera, are important to me.  Principles are important to.  That then affects the kind of places and people I want to work with.

James: And as you mentioned at the beginning of the interview, it’s that period of reflection that you have transitioning from university to work where you can begin to think about what it is that you want and the type of company that you want.  And if you can do that thinking at the beginning, it’s going to save you so much–

David:  Absolutely.

James: –trouble down the line.

David: And you can get help for that.  You know, you don’t have to do that alone.  You know, I go back to what I do which is helping people to think that through and to think about, okay, you know, if making money is your number one value — you know maybe that’s the number one value you have, is to be as wealthy as you can be, etcetera — but also another value you have is family time, which is going to come out on top if they compete? So then you start to realize there’s a pecking order with these values and if you decide your family is more important than making money, then when push comes to shove and you’ve got to make decisions about jobs, career, etcetera, that’s the one that went out.

As a typical example, for me I once got offered two jobs at the same time.  One job was a consultancy job and I got to gone through an assessment center and I’d gone to a second interview and I was just about to finish the second interview and I asked the question, what’s the best thing about working here and what’s the worst thing about working here?  And the best thing was, oh, fantastic lifestyle, great colleagues, wonderful work.  What’s the worst thing?  I didn’t see my children grow up.   So, I turned that job down and I went to another job which was less exciting, less interesting but same pay and allowed me to see my young kids at the time.

But interestingly, as a result of going to that other job, within a month I knew I had made the wrong decision because actually the value that I put higher than my family, surprisingly, was the nature of the work and what it would do for me.  So rather than having a boring job and be able to go home 5:00, what I wanted was a more interesting job with varied hours and a more exciting lifestyle and I made some sacrifices.  But that’s the value decision you have to make.

James: And as you said, it’s about careers, you know, you start in one and where you end up is not necessarily where you thought you’d begin.

David: No, and I supposed the other thing to say about that sort of nonlinear career, etcetera, is there are still some, there is a pattern to my career which is about identifying those things that have been common threads all the way through.  And as I said, certain things to do with coaching, facilitation, analytic, writing, etcetera, have been common all the way through.   They just morphed into different shapes and different environments along the way and have been honed through practice and I think it’s that kind of understanding of yourself and reflection you need to do throughout your career.  And when you’re starting out you have to, you have to start to pay attention to that.  Too many people of my generation have got to the other end of their careers and said, I didn’t pay enough attention and I’ve ended up somewhere didn’t want to be.

James: So listeners, wise advice there from David about making the, having those thoughts in the early stages of your career so you can benefit from it instead of looking back in anger when you get to the end.

James:  Thanks to David. There are no right or wrong answers when it comes to values, each will be different for each person. For some of you, money could be down the bottom of your list behind making a difference, for others, money and prestige could be up at the top. My point here is to think about what they are and where they stand, I can give you the map to get a job….it helps though if the map is pointing you in the right direction.

Next, let’s stay on you you beautiful listener, and continue to think introspectively, with two clips looking at who you are and your motivations.

The first is linked to your values and is your Why……what is it that is driving you forward? What is it that is going to help you to be a success at work? Let’s join the UK’s number 1 motivational speaker, the Northern Tony Robbins, Mr Brad Burton himself

James:  One of the things you talk about in your book quite a lot with having your own business is the importance of having a “why,” having a reason that is going to get you up in the morning, you know, get you up when it’s 5:00 in the morning and it’s dark and get you out there and making things happen.

Brad:     Yeah totally. And my “why,”— I never had my “why” back in the day was to go and get stoned and party at weekends. That was my “why.” You know, that was my “why” and I ended up living for those weekends, well you look forward to 6:00 p.m. and then party time through to Sunday and then you feel like shit until Wednesday. You know, that was my “why” back then and then all of a sudden, family comes along and they “why” now is about being sensible and creating not a role model because I don’t consider myself a role model but create a home and a stable environment, and a dad that the boys — I’ve got three, 2 boys and a girl — that they can look up to. And obviously go, you know what, this is my dad and that’s what I can be. Because once again, in terms of my tool kit, I didn’t have anything conventional to allow me to succeed but if I look at anyone, if you think about any of your audience here, listeners. Look at what you’ve got in your tool kit. My tool kit was, I was street savvy. I’m a risk taker. You know, all these sorts of things have been massive qualities that you can’t sort of teach someone. I think I’ve used every element of what I stand for. The fact is, you and I are talking now doing this interview. You know, 10 years ago I couldn’t have done this. But what’s happened over the last 10 years have built that experience up. I built that experience up and I’m now applying myself. See, 10 years ago I was great at chatting girls up. Fabulous. Right? Great at chatting girls up and making joints and getting stoned, not so good at it now to be honest that’s because I’m married and I’m behaving myself but what I’m trying to say is whatever you focus on, you apply it, and this is the thing, if you’ve only got bandwidth, if you’ve only got bandwidth in terms of what are you applying your bandwidth to? Are you applying your bandwidth to being Mr. Cool when you go out on weekends? Well, that’s great but you’ve got less bandwidth to apply yourself at being good at business, or good at a job search, whatever it is. You’ve only got 100 resource, you need to define it like a computer game. You need to define where you apply your resource and right now, I think I’m applying 50 percent of my life to business, 50 percent of my life to family. I think it was, the equilibrium was probably 85 percent business, 15 percent family as recent as three years ago. So, I managed to get a balance right in my life and when I say balance, what I do is that I do what I want when I want. That’s the reality of it. So, if I can’t be arsed working, I won’t work and go play computer games. If I want to work, I’ll put the computer games down and go and work. So, I’m working at optimum performance, where everything works. When you’re employed, you’ve got to sit there till half past five pretending to work.   A quarter past five, I’m thinking, fucking hell I’ve got 15 more minutes to go tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap; only five more minutes to go; just pretending to work. What a waste of everyone’ life. Waste of the employer’s time. Waste of your life. That’s what we do in this world. So my “why” is to make a positive difference to my family, and it’s also to take my kids to Disney World. I take them to Disney World every year for a wonderful holiday there. And that’s like, you would think, working class lad from Manchester no money going to Disney World? On these 18 days, 21 day vacations? Ten years ago how would I have managed to do that, it would have been okay for everyone else whose there but somewhere along the way the decisions that I’ve made, that I’ve made have brought me to the position where I can do just that.

James:  Couple of things for me to take from this, what is your bandwidth used for at the moment? Applying for jobs, or going out partying? No matter who you are you only have 24 hours in a day, so make sure you are focussing on what is important. Also, what is your Why? What is driving you forward to get that job? Is it a strong enough to keep you going as it gets interesting? If not, is it you or the job? Food for thought. Check out episode 20 for more from Brad, and if his message resonates do check out his 3 books, including Get Off Your Arse, and Get Off Your Arse Too.

Next is Jennifer Holloway, guest from episode 12 and author of Personal Branding for Brits. In this extract she discusses your personal brand and why you need to be true to yourself as you look for work.

James:  And as you talk in the book as well, you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

Jennifer:  No, and you’ll make yourself loony trying, quite frankly.  It’s about the reason why you get yourself to that knowledge of here’s my brand pyramid, here’s the best version of me.  It says that you have a sanity check to know that that is what you are going out there and selling.  The best example I can give is, years ago when I was making these train journeys and I was working on my brand, I got myself to a final pyramid.  I then – and this is in the extremely early days of my business ; back in 2008 – after I knew what my own brand was, I emailed a whole load of people I’d worked with; my ex CEO; some of my earlier clients; people who had worked for me; and just asked for some feedback on my brand.  And I got a bit of feedback from someone whose comment was, Jennifer, the thing about your brand is, it’s double espresso, but sometimes I wanted tea.  Now, at the time I got this feedback, I’ll be honest with you, I wasn’t exactly in the best frame of mind and got somewhat upset thinking, oh, my goodness.  This person doesn’t like me and I’ve been too over the top.   Being described as double espresso?  I’ve been too in-your-face and I’ve obviously been too opinionated.  I didn’t even know he wanted tea.  So, obviously I wasn’t good at listening.  And I had a real crises of confidence and my initial thought, I’ll be honest with you was, Oh, my God. I need to become more tea.  I need to tone things down.  I need to be calmer.  I need to be gentler. I need to listen more. And it was all, I need to change, I need to change.   But then I slept on it and I woke up the next morning and I reread this email and I thought, hold on here a minute.  I’ve spent a month on a train working out what my brand is.  This person has called it double espresso? He’s right.  My brand is double espresso.  It’s quite full on.  It’s quite in your face.  If people see me, I always have bright red lipstick, bright red nails.  I have quite an expressive way of talking.  I’m double espresso.  It’s not up to me to give this person tea at the same time.  You wouldn’t go into Starbucks and say, hey, could I have a double espresso and can you put it in with a mug of tea?  No one wants to drink that.  And I just realized then and there not everybody is going to buy my brand but the people who want coffee will and the people who want tea, won’t.  And that’s fine.   It’s much better that I am the best coffee I can be than I try and become tea and I’m really bad at it.

James:   Excellent point.  And one of the VPs I used to work with, when we were bidding for work, his philosophy was, we either want to be first or to be last.  So, a lot of people aren’t going to like what we’re selling–

Jennifer:   Yeah.

James:    –which is great, they are not for us, but a lot of people, they’re going to love it and the worst place to be is in the middle.

Jennifer:    I agree completely, and I think, go out there.  The thing is, say you go for an interview.  You’re a graduate and you go for an interview and you are 100 percent yourself, the best version of you that you’ve worked out in your brand.  If you put that out there and you say, hey, here’s what I’m selling and you are very clear about it, you are giving people the information they need to decide if they’re buying.   The people who are on the same wavelength as you will read all the clues you’re giving through how you sound, how you look, how you speak, everything, and they will love that and they will buy it.  Some people will sit there.  They’ll read all the clues you’ve given and go, that is so not what I want. But that’s fine because you know what?  Even if you got the job you are never really going to be happy working for that person because you’re on an entirely different wave length.  So put your brand out there honestly and let the people who are looking for it, find it.

You know, I have been— That guy did me a huge favour saying to me, you’re double espresso because I use it as shorthand now.  So when I— I recently redesigned my website and in my head it’s always, is it double espresso?  It is double espresso?  When I write a blog, am I being double espresso?  When I buy an outfit, is it double espresso? And it’s like yeah, because I need to be consistent.  If I think I’m veering into tea, I suddenly stop and think, well, hold on a minute.  It’s not my brand.   So, it’s so great, as you say, be one thing.  You know the Marmite effect.  You either love it of you hate.  Well, Marmite is an incredibly successful product.  So, it must be working.

James:  I love that clip, now thinking about your brand isn’t something that is very easy to do, but that’s why you should do it. Because nobody else will, and if you think about it and what your strengths are, it will help to crystalise your thoughts on exactly what you should be applying for. Check out episode 12 for more details of exactly how you can go about this as Jennifer takes us into the detail of how its done.

Moving on….you’ve thought about your values, you’ve got your why and your personal brand…now you need to take control. Over to career guru with the velvety voice, it’s John Lees, star of episode 16 and 44, with a clip from his first appearance on the show.

James:    Networking also plays into one line from your book that really struck me which was, “Whatever your career stage, it’s vitally important to be active rather than passive in your job search.”

John:   Yeah, that’s true.

James:  How can people take on that being active; and you talk in your book about creative career in management?

John:  Well, that sounds fancy; doesn’t it?  But what it really means is taking control of the levers for yourself and understanding that you actually improve the odds by doing so.  So, if you’re passive, what you tend to do is to use job boards or apply to advertised vacancies and they’re often known in the market place, these days, as candidate magnets.  You know, in the graduate market place an interesting advertisement in a national newspaper or even an online one for a graduate role, they can easily attract a thousand people.  So, you’re chances of getting through even if your CV is brilliant are very, very slim.  Sometimes they’ll support the hands, themselves from the hands of recruitment agencies without really understanding that’s a relationship that you need to build and you have to have fantastic clarity about what you’re looking for.

So, the other side of the coin I would say, well, what happens if you are active is that you understand that reaching out to people to discover what’s out there, and I really want to emphasize it, don’t call it networking.  Change that word in your brain to something more like, interesting conversations, face to face research, finding people that are interesting.  It doesn’t really matter what you replace it with, as soon as you do that what you’re actually doing is making yourself visible to a very different kind of job market.  When people say I was lucky because, and I just met somebody, well, you don’t just meet people but that kind of happens because you’re looking and you’re out there.   And certainly when the phone rings and says, here’s something that you might like to look at, here’s an opportunity you’ll be interested in, that’s probably because of something you’ve done actively.  Active behaviours sometimes means direct approaches to organizations but it generally means telling people what you’re looking for, reaching out, making sure that what limited time you have available that you are talking to people face to face.

James:   It’s true.  Again, it’s only as I got older that I begin to realize just how big the hidden job market is.  So, after university I applied to, my focus was on the big graduate schemes and the big online applications without really thinking that 95 percent of the other jobs were out there and it’s about making connections and speaking to people.

John:  Well, that’s really interesting there, James, because I think— That’s such a common story that, you know, people with pretty good degrees, they apply for those schemes and they don’t get very far and they don’t get much feedback.  So that’s off putting anyway and then what they tend to do is kind of gradually work their way down the scale very fast to taking fairly low level jobs.  So, it usually becomes, well, if I can’t get the difficult thing, I’ll just do the easy thing.  Now, the problem with taking a low level job is how long you’re going to stay in it and what that actually does in terms of shaping your CV.  So, a midrange compromise might be to say, well, that’s the obvious route.  What’s the less obvious route? And again, this is where talking to people helps because you’re not saying, give me a job or tell me where the job vacancies are.  Often what you’re doing is finding people who studied two or three years before you and saying, tell me the story.  How did you get there?  Who should I be talking to?  What other organizations are out there?  Yeah, so it does make a huge difference and you really have to watch out for this kind of, the rules of the game are not working for me.  So, I’ll lower my sights to the bottom level.

James:  And you talk in the book about A to Z thinking.  So……

John:   Perhaps I better explain what A to Z thinking.   A to Z thinking is kind of the thinking we use for project management.  The problem is in a diverse and kind of chaotic job market where things are being created and lots of jobs aren’t advertised, you can’t just sort of say I’m going to set my sights on that role and that organization and work towards it like I’m managing a project.  A better method would be, you’re going to probably have five or six career ideas and these are plates that you’re going to have to spin, even without necessarily saying, that’s the perfect answer.  Five or six is great because it means you’re constantly having to say, who do I speak to next?  What do I follow up?  What connections can I make?  What bits of research do I need to do?  And you know, even if there’s somebody that says, well, I’m really busy.  I’m in my last year at university, I always say to them, well, if you even find half an hour a week to do some of that, then get the maximum leverage out of that half hour.

James: Speaking to people really is the secret. And to take us into this in more detail is career coach and author Richard Maun.

James: And moving on to secret number two; I know this is something which strikes fear into many people’s hearts, including my own.  Richard, would you like to enlighten us with number two?

Richard: Yeah, I would.  It’s very simple.  Again, this one begins with an N and its networking.  So it’s N for networking. And the reason we’re going for this one for number two is there’s a massive secret job market out there.  You know, 95% of jobs are not advertised.  They go to people who know people, who know people. So if you’re looking at a newspaper and there are 100 jobs in there, there will be another two or three thousand that you won’t get to hear about and networking is the skill that enables you to find the opportunity.

The other things about networking that people overlook completely is if, for example, I’m talking to you, James, and then you meet someone tomorrow who says, oh, I’m looking for a business coach, and you say, Oh, I know this guy called Richard Maun. he’s really nice, really passionate about it then you’re already selling me in and that client will overlook that I may not have a particular qualification or particular experience.  So networking allows you to be sold at a human level, you see.  So, there’s a double hit with it.  You found the job and you get sold into it.

James:  So from a graduate point of view, if you are recently graduated from university, you might not have a particularly large big network outside of your peers at the university and your friends.  How can you go about starting to network so it’s effective in your job hunt?

Richard: That’s a great question there, James.  Effective networking starts off by making a list of people you know. So, if you know your family, they will know people.  It’s very tempting to think of mum and dad as being so grey haired old fogies.  It could be, though, that your mom knows the chairman of a local organization. So I always say, start with people at home.  Then think about your relatives.  Who are they?  Where do they work? Who do they know? Then think about your immediate peer group, who are they, who do they know?  That immediately gives you about 15 to 20 people you can go and talk to. So networking is about talking to people and it starts with talking to your immediate family, your uncles and your aunts, for example.  So you can say, I’m looking for a job.  Who do you know who?  That’s the most valuable question.  Who do you know who, who might be able to help me? Not, can I have a job? It’s who do you know? So that’s the first thing, is really to be methodical about it.  It’s amazing that you always know more people than you think you do. And I always say to people, you can always email me and say, Richard, who do you know? And you’d be amazed at how many people don’t ask.  So by asking, it gets you ahead of the game.

The other thing you can do is be very practically minded.  Look at your local community and think to yourself, where is a good place to go and talk to people.  So, there are local business clubs that meet.  You can go along to those as a guest, often for free and even if it costs you 10 or 12 pounds a month to go along, you can join them and rather than turn up and say, I’m a graduate, I’m looking for work, you can say to yourself, yeah, I have done a marketing degree.  I’m thinking about setting myself up in business as a marketing consultant and I’m just feeling my way in the world and gathering information.  People will be very happy to help you and you’ve just met another 50 people that way.

James:   It’s a famous saying, your network is your net worth. So, the number of people you know.

Richard:  Well, you’re absolutely right and you always know more people than you realize and people are always going to be more helpful.  So the first thing is look to your – I’m not joking – look to your family and start to tell people that you’re looking for work.  The second thing is, look to your community and from a business perspective and go business networking. And the third thing is, volunteer.  I have a radio show on a Thursday and we have a number of graduates coming into the radio show to act as producers and supporters and things and I always say to them, you now know me and ask me what do you want?  How can I help you?  And in fact, I just got our producer a job because she had that conversation and said, okay, Rich, put your money where your mouth is. You’re this careers guy. What do I do? I said, you know, go and start talking to people.  Of course she’s talked to people at the radio station and lo and behold, she’s been sat in the studio for the last 12 weeks with her future employer.

James:  Who do you know who. What a brilliant question. If you take nothing else from this episode and only remember to ask this in your job search then you will be doing well. For more from Richard and his other 2 job hunting secrets check out episode 3.

Next we are going to go across the Atlantic for a clip from Karen Kelsky, author of The Professor Is In and star of episode 29 where she discusses how to get a job following a PhD. In this clip Karen shares a brilliant example of how you can begin to think about what you are good at.

James:  And how can they begin then to match their skills to the wider non-academic job market?

Karen:   Well, the first task is actually to identify your skills and that’s a challenge for people with Ph.D.’s because they have spent so many years among people with a similar skill set that your skills become very much taken for granted.  The example that I like to use is I’m a Japan anthropologist by training.  I lived in Japan for many years to do my research and even prior to entering graduate school I lived in Japan and I’m fluent in Japanese.  As a Japan anthropologist every one of my colleagues was fluent in Japanese.  So we didn’t go to conferences and brag, well you know, I am fluent in Japanese.  That would be preposterous.  You never mentioned it.  I mean, it would be de passé to mention that but if I had to make the transition out of the academy, suddenly my fluency in Japanese would become a very, very marketable skill but I have to learn how to present it as such and that’s just one example.  There are countless others.  There’s public speaking.  There’s writing, editing, statistics, survey methods, interviewing, all of these skills and I’m speaking from an anthropologist perspective.  Those are skills we typically have but no matter what your field, you have other skills.  So the first thing is, identify them, tally them, brainstorm.  Don’t sensor yourself.  Really free your mind.  Liberate your mind to realize how multitalented you really are.

If I could add one more point to add on to that, one of the things about graduate training is it constantly tells you what you’re doing wrong and where you’re lacking.  It is a critique based experience and the outcome of that is enormous insecurity and you’re very accustomed to thinking of yourself as what you’re lacking.   Well, I haven’t really finished reading that book.  I haven’t really finished chapter four of my dissertation.  I haven’t finished that article yet that I was supposed to get out.  That’s the world that Ph.D.’s live in.  You have to overcome that negative self-talk and that negative self-image and reverse it.  I am capable of speaking Japanese.  I’m excellent at speaking Japanese.  I’m excellent at statistical analysis.  I’m an excellent writer and editor.  These are not things we are accustomed to saying to ourselves or to anyone else.  So that’s the big obstacle for anybody moving from a Ph.D. out into the non-academic world.

James:  What are the skills that you are taking for granted? What is your equivalent to speaking Japanese, that you are so used to that you don’t shout it from the rooftops in your applications and interviews? Really pay attention to what you are good at, ask for honest feedback from you family, friends, university colleagues and people that you’ve worked with. What they tell you might surprise you. Everyone has more skills than they think they do, and from different roles, jobs work experiences etc. The secret just comes from spending the time to think about what they are and how you might use them.

Back to UK now to Simon Reichwald, Director of the Bright Futures Society, for a sobering view of the graduate job market at the moment. If you think a 2.1 is good enough….then you definitely want to listen to this clip.

James:  And you talk there about the large number of people getting 2/1s and Firsts.  How would you recommend that people get in touch with you, see to differentiate themselves on their CV or application?

Simon:  Yeah.  I think that’s a fantastic question and I think you hit the nail on the head, James.  It is about differentiation because the brutal and sad truth is that academic achievement is no longer a differentiator.  Now, 20 years ago it absolutely was.  You know, if you’ve got a 2/1, you were one of a minority.  Now you’re one of a majority.  You know, your A level points.  Again, you know, if you have 300 UCAS points or 3 Bs you would be in the minority.  Now it’s the majority and of course the other interesting thing that happens, a great number of companies are dropping UCAS points as a criteria for application but anyway, that’s probably a topic for another day.  But, the point is academic achievement will not differentiate.  Relying on that is a dangerous tactic.  Now, don’t get me wrong.  It’s important you do well academically but — and as well as you can — but it’s not a differentiator and increased — and also sadly, work experience isn’t the massive differentiator because again, because students are smart, and you’re catching on to the fact that you need to get good work experience.  So, you know work experience matters too and it will begin to differentiate you but it will not uniquely differentiate you.  Increasingly what we are seeing is employers are looking at what else have you gotten over and above the obvious stuff you do at university.  And they’re looking for evidence where you have taken the initiative to do more and that could be in all kinds of different things.  That could be volunteering.   It can be charity work.  It can be, of course, you getting involved in clubs and societies, initially at membership level, and then in time at a committee level, you know, like the Bright Futures Society.  So it’s evidence of where you have taken the initiative to do more and achieved in that environment.  So again, it can be achieved in sport or music.  They’re just looking for where have you bothered to use your time in a way that you’re going to require effort and commitment from you. These are the things that begin to differentiate you and these are the things that employers look for when they’re looking at your application form, when they’re looking at your CV, when they’re doing those interviews.  They want to know about what else have you done.  They don’t particularly want to focus on your academics.  They’ll be interested in it but they’re not going to focus on it because most people have got good academics.

James:  Completely agree and you can see where some of the big companies are starting to drop a requirement for a 2/1.

Simon:  Yes.  And also, quite rightly, they recognize that getting a — you know, and this is a bit contentious, I appreciate — but getting a 2/1 in one subject is harder in inverted commas than a 2/1 in another subject.  Or for the most important one, actually, is that academic achievement is not, there is no direct correlation between academic achievement and work based success.  Now that doesn’t mean if you do well academically you won’t be successful at work.  But what is does mean is if you haven’t done well academically it doesn’t mean you can’t have a highly successful career.  And that’s the bit the employers are interested in and that’s why they’re really focusing on you as the person rather than you as, defining you by your 2/1 or your 300, or 320, or 360 UCAS points.  And I think that’s a good thing because where the market therefore, I think, is moving is employers are much more interested in the person rather than defining the person by their academic achievement.  And what that does, I think, is level the playing field much more for students.  Because any student can take the initiative to get involved in all kinds of other things, that university offers them because university offers you wonderful opportunities and anyone can take part in that and show that initiative and develop those skills and develop those capabilities and network with employers and find out what they want to do.  So I think the way the market is moving and it’s moving away from the obsession about academics.  As I said, don’t get me wrong, academics are really important in terms of don’t think it doesn’t matter then, it does.  But more and more the focus is shifting towards you as the person and I think that’s a really good thing.

James:  Completely agree.  You can teach skills but you can’t teach someone an attitude.

Simon:  No, you can’t; 100 percent.

James:  Thanks to Simon, for more from Simon check out my chat with him in episode 26. Again, all the links from everything today at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/greatesthits1. Don’t worry though if your university time wasn’t spent with much more than a few lectures and bottles of Glen’s vodka, it’s never too late to begin to get that work experience, whether through volunteering, working, part time work whatever it is. It’s just up to you to make it happen.

So that brings us to the end of part 1 of some of my favourite clips from the first 50 episodes. Stay tuned as next week we cover extracts giving you amazing advice through each stage of the application process to ensure that you are a success. If you like these shorter nuggets make sure you check out my youtube channel which has over 150 short videos for your to enjoy. Get in touch on Twitter at @gradjobpodcast or drop me an email at hello@graduatejobpodcast.com and let me know your thoughts on the episode, I love hearing from you so do get in touch, but without further ado, I’ll let Brad Burton close out the show…

James:  And finally, what one top tip would you give to listeners that they can implement today?

Brad:   Be yourself.  Right? Be yourself because somewhere along the way, once again go back to that bandwidth, because if you’re spending 20 percent of your time, or 20 percent of your energy being something you’re not to try to appease people, to make people happier or to be more employable, then guess what? You’re only 80 percent you and that means that actually you’re failing. So, my life started coming together when I spent 100 percent of my time being 100 percent me and if people don’t like me for being me, fuck off. I couldn’t give two shits. My life is okay without those people and the world is a big place and people say, well, your style is not for everyone. Well, guess what? You show me one person whose style is for everyone. We’re all individuals. So, why don’t you start embracing that individuality and be you.

James: On that bombshell, I hope you enjoyed the show today, but more importantly, I hope you use it, and apply it. See you next week.