Episode 93 – How to get a graduate job with DS Smith

May 12, 2020 Podcast

Hello and thank you for joining me for the 93rd episode of the UKs number 1 careers podcast and boy do I have a cracker for you today. I’m joined on the show by a company who aren’t a household name, but whose products you will definitely have used. They are in the FTSE 100, are growing rapidly, and have some of the most exciting and international graduate schemes on the market today. They are of course packaging and recycling giant DS Smith. In this episode we delve deep into DS Smith and cover what exactly that they do as a business, and the types of roles they offer across their 3 graduate schemes. We look into the finance scheme in particular and its amazing opportunity to spend one-year placements working across Europe. We explore what you need to do to apply and the details of each stage of the application process. We cover how you can stand out from the crowd and what you can expect from the virtual assessment centre. No matter if you have already applied, or not even heard of DS Smith, this is an episode you won’t want to miss, as it is packed full of brilliant advice which will stand you in good stead for any graduate scheme you apply to. As always, a full transcript and all the links from today can be found in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/DSSmith.

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • DS Smith and exactly what they do as a business
  • Their 3 graduate schemes and what you can expect across each
  • The international travel opportunities available on the finance scheme
  • Details of each stage of the application process
  • Why 23-page CVs aren’t needed to apply
  • How to stand out from the crowd at each stage
  • What to expect from the virtual assessment centre

SELECTED LINKS INCLUDE:

Transcript – Episode 93: How to get a graduate job with DS Smith

Announcer: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, your home for weekly information and inspiration to help you get the graduate job of your dreams.

James: Hello and welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each episode I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, graduate recruiters and career coaches who bring decades of experience into a byte size show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had when I graduated.

Hello and thank you for joining me for the 93rd episode of the UKs number 1 careers podcast, and boy do I have a cracker for you today. I’m joined on the show by a company who aren’t a household name, but whose products you will definitely have used. They are in the FTSE 100, are growing rapidly, and have some of the most exciting and international graduate schemes on the market today. They are of course packaging and recycling giant DS Smith. In this episode we delve deep into DS Smith and cover what exactly that they do as a business, and the types of roles they offer across their 3 graduate schemes. We look into the finance scheme in particular and its amazing opportunity to spend one-year placements working across Europe. We explore what you need to do to apply and the details of each stage of the application process. We cover how you can stand out from the crowd and what you can expect from the virtual assessment centre. No matter if you have already applied or not even heard of DS Smith, this is an episode you won’t want to miss as it is packed full of brilliant advice which will stand you in good stead for any graduate scheme you apply to. As always, a full transcript and all the links from today can be found in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/DSSmith.

Before we start let me tell you about the brilliant course I’m working on cunningly titled “How to get a graduate job”. This course is packed chock full of decades of experience into one step by step guide of everything you need to do to get a graduate job. There are videos, guides, handouts, cheat sheets, example CVs, example covering letters, example answers to those annoying 200-word competency questions, help with telephone interviews, video interviews. Look if you need to know it to get a graduate job it’s in my course. The course is going live in August, but to be the first to hear about it and get it at a never to be repeated price with special bonuses, head to https://howtogetagraduatejob.com/ and leave me your email. Right, on with the show.

James: A very warm welcome back to the show, Brian Sinclair, graduate recruitment manager at DS Smith. Brian, great to have you back.

Brian Sinclair: Thanks for having me back, James. Great to be on board again.

James: Brian, let’s start at the beginning today. Maybe if you tell us a little bit about DS Smith. They were probably one of the biggest companies that listeners might not have heard of.

Brian: Let me tell you about DS Smith. DS Smith was founded in the 1940s, was originally a box-making business set up in East London, but obviously, since then, things have changed. We have expanded to provide full solutions, including recycling and paper-making. We’ve acquired businesses in North America, and Europe, and we have experienced rapid growth, and the company’s grown or doubled in size in the last five, six years, and today, our business is made up of three core divisions: that’s packaging, paper, and recycling. Obviously, the bigger a company becomes, the more our customers expect of us, and thus the more we expect of ourselves as well. We have, as an organization, this relentless desire to improve, to innovate, and to reach new goals.

As you said, people don’t know about it, but yes, we are a FTSE 100 Company with 2018-2019 revenues of 6.2 billion. We employ about 32,000 people at the moment. With 250 sites across 37 countries worldwide, so quite big, and just to give you an example of the types of volumes, we provide more than 1 million boxes, so 1 million boxes a day to a well-known online retailer. In terms of our core sustainability, we offer a broad range of solutions to clients’ packaging needs, innovations processes. That will help them reduce waste, cost, and complexity from there.

Supply chains, by using a proven expertise from design, to production, supply chain to recycling, as an organization, we can offer high-quality, environmentally-friendly, innovative solutions, and of course a great service that looks at the whole of a company’s packaging needs, not just one part. We actually call that supply chain thinking, and it’s a unified approach to removing complexity from and simplifying a customer’s supply chains.

Just to give you some kind of detail on that, last year, DS Smith announced a partnership with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, which again you might not have heard of, and this, we believe, will accelerate the company’s circular economy drive and sustain innovation in the business, including recycling, and carbon efficiency, and e-commerce, etcetera. Just search DS Smith and Ellen MacArthur Foundation to find out more.

A couple of other quick, recent examples of innovations to improve sustainability, you can look up our box-to-box in 14 days initiative on YouTube or our Coffee Cup Drop Box Initiative that we had as well, and how we look to recycle 2.5 billion coffee cups a year. That’s as many coffee cups are used every year in the UK. We have the capacity, if we can get them, to actually recycle them. This is all done on just one of our paper mills and recycling centres in Kent, which is one of the largest in Europe. You can look all of these up on YouTube.

I think in terms of sustainability and being environment-friendly, we go way past what the average company tries to achieve. Does that give you an idea?

James: That’s brilliant, and some big numbers you mentioned there. The links that you mentioned, I’ll make sure those are linked up in the show notes, which today will be over at GraduateJobPodcast.com/DSSmith. Just going back to some of the earlier stuff, as you mentioned, FTSE 100 company, 32,000 employees across 37 countries. As a graduate joining the firm, lots of opportunity there to make an impact outside of the UK.

Brian: We have, as an organization, three grad programs each year: one in packaging, one in finance, and one in recycling. The recycling one is now closed for applications, so maybe for next year, have a look. The other two, packaging and finance, are still open via our early careers website. Please, go and have a look.

James: Again, links to all of these will be in the show notes. You did mention offline, is it the end of May that candidates, applicants still have a chance to get an application in? Is that right?

Brian: Yes, that’s for the packaging and finance programs. They are closing on the 30th of May.

James: If we delve into some of the detail of the three different grad schemes, what are they like in terms of length and how long will listeners be on the grad schemes for?

Brian: Both the finance and the packaging programs are three-year rotation programs. The packaging program is UK-based. We can talk on all aspects of a business from operations, supply chain, logistics, engineering, design, sales, marketing, innovation. Lots of variety for the candidate, lots of opportunities to grow and develop on the finance program.

On that, again, three years, but you’ll enjoy three 12-month placements across Europe, giving you a chance to work in a different finance department in various European locations across our group. This can mean placing them in a head office environment, or on one of our production sites, and then lastly, your final placement, we look for that to be defined by your development, your career preferences, and business opportunities.

For both programs, you’ll need at least a 2:1 degree plus the unrestricted right to work in the UK, or if you’re in the finance program, unrestricted right to work across Europe, so quite a big reach. For the packaging program, we’re especially interested in students who studied any relevant subjects, so supply chain logistics engineering, engineering management, or just have some relevant skills, so skills and experience in, maybe, sales or marketing experience, or for the finance program, anything in the finance department itself.

For the finance program, though, one of the added extras is that you have to be fluent in English and at least one other European language. Don’t apply because you’ve been learning Spanish in Duolingo during the lockdown. That’s not going to cut it, my friend, so a good solid fluency in at least two European languages for the finance program.

James: Delving into those in a bit more detail, with the finance one, there’s not many graduate schemes where you get the opportunity to spend a year in three different countries across Europe, so that’s a really big plus for that one. Do you have a preference in the European language, or could it be any European language?

Brian: My top tip would be go look at our website, see where we have the most locations, and those languages, we have more preference for because that gives more opportunity to move around. We do find there’s a lack of German-speaking students in the UK, as it’s known to be a hard language to learn. If you speak German fluently, not just a little bit, very interested to hear your application for the finance program. It’s really more about being willing to travel. We find, over the years of doing it, certain nationalities are more willing and able to travel, and constantly move around.

Again, just think is moving your home country every year something you’re up for? With that, you get lots of exposure, and stretch, and development. You get a professional qualification as well. If that’s something that sounds of interest to you, great. But, if you’re a bit of a home body, if you haven’t quite cut those apron strings, then the finance programs is going to probably push you too far.

James: With the packaging program, you talked about going around different types of placements. Do listeners get a choice with which particular placements it might be, or is that just depending on the scheme and what the business needs?

Brian: I think it evolves as you go through the program, because obviously, you join. You might have read about us, but getting inside and really getting to understand the organization, for the first place, we’ll obviously put you somewhere based on your skills, experience, and yes, business needs. But, then as you get to know the organization, we get to know you, we see your skills, strengths, abilities, where you’re particularly good at, where you need a little bit of coaching, and mentoring, and support, guide you through, maybe, your second rotation, looking at the two-way conversation.

We’d like to think, when it comes to the third rotation, and indeed, where you’re going to roll off the program, what your full-time role is going to look like, we want to see some input from you and some sort of direction. We don’t want you relying on us for the whole three years to tell you where to go and what to do. We want you to be able to proactively network, engage, find out what we do, and then see where you really feel, having had a year or two years behind, where you really want to go with your career at that point.

Be open to surprises: surprises to yourself, surprises from the business. You get to know, as you might go, “I didn’t know you did that, and I’d love to be involved,” and we might find out that you’re particularly good at something we never or you never knew you were good at either and, “Hang on, have you ever tried that as a career path?”

We’ll be flexible taking aboard what you can do, and as you can be flexible with us, just be flexible and willing to learn and try new things. We’ll guide you initially, and that’ll transition gently into you knowing where you want to go by the end of the three years. That’s the hope, anyways.

James: One of the reasons I started my career in a consulting grad scheme was because I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. This would have been a brilliant opportunity to just get that exposure across different parts of the business so you can try sales, you can try marketing, you can try logistics, and supply chain, and things, and see where you really feel at home.

Brian: Bear in mind, it’s three kind of rotations. You’re not going to touch them all because it’s just too big, but we’ll try and steer a little bit so you’ll try the areas that you can add value in as well, and hopefully learn from. You’re trying to find that balance. I think, overall, it’s fair to say, for both programs, the leadership here in DS Smith are quite vocal about the fact that our grads will be, or should be, leaders of the future. Particularly, in the finance role, their aim is, within 10 years, to be a financial director, which is a pretty big achievement, and this is just based on time. They’re not shy of ambition for themselves, and indeed, for the graduates in this organization.

James: You can’t go wrong where you can see companies where they invest in the graduates, and also, they see them as the future talent, and they’re looking to pull them through the business to the position of responsibility down the line. If you’re joining a firm, you know what you can aspire to further down the line.

Brian: Yeah, indeed.

James: We talked about the packaging and the finance scheme. Even though the recycling scheme isn’t open, as we record this, in May 2020, what does the recycling scheme look like when that opens in October, September time?

Brian: People often think recycling is about getting the product and just converting it to something else, and it sounds quite dirty. It’s actually quite a technical process. We look for other things like chemical engineers, who can come in and look at, “How can we physically break down the raw material, which is basically the cardboard box coming back to us?” We can recycle cardboard. I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I know it’s something like 20-odd times we can recycle the cardboard. We can make a fresh, virginal cardboard from paper, and then we can then recycle it up to 25 times. Even then, it gets converted into fertilizer, so it’s never fully, totally a waste product, if that makes sense.

It’s just understanding how do we get the raw material, break it down back into its constituent parts, into that sheet of paper, fibre itself, removing all the dirt on it, any ink that might be on it, any kind of waxy layer on it, like those coffee cups I mentioned, and converting it back to raw material that can then be thrown back into paper and thrown back into packaging, and it is a massive operation. If you’ve ever seen it online or ever get a chance to visit one of the sites, seeing how we do that and the scale at which we do it, it’s insane, but totally brilliant to see that we are such an environment-friendly, sustainable organization. This whole circular supply chain, our actual product is our raw material, and we fully utilize that.

The recycling is all about how do we do that efficiently, and effectively, and other ways we can reduce the waste or produce our output to another raw material for another industry. We often produce excess electricity and gas that we can give back to the national supplier. There’s thing like that we try to do, and we see it as a good business solution. It isn’t just a nice, fluffy thing to do. We believe we can do this and be more efficient. The recycling is at the heart of how we be as efficient, and as sustainable, and as environment-friendly as possible when we continue to grow our business.

James: Do applicants specifically need, say, a chemical engineering background or an engineering background, or again, are you agnostic about the type of thing that people study?

Brian: We do prefer people who have a relevant degree, a relevant qualification, because they’ll understand some of the more technical terms across the business, particularly on the chemical engineering side, a little bit on the packaging. We want the supply chain, and logistics, and engineering, etcetera, as I said.

On the finance side, they’re keen that you don’t come in moulded as a fully-trained accountant, and everything is black and white, and this is the way that’s done. We do want, in finance, and of course, the other programs, people to come in with that little bit of innovation, and new ideas, and fresh thinking. We really want a variety, but yes we will prefer the relevant experience, because we know, from experience, they’ll get up to speed a lot quicker, and they’ll be comfortable in the industry they have chosen, a complete mind-set transfer from an English philosophy degree into walking into a production site. You’ll have to make it clear to us why you want to get in that route, otherwise we’ll really challenge you on that and the selection processes to why do you want to work here, what’s the interest, and what can you bring to the role. Be prepared for those if you are applying without the relevant qualification.

James: One final question on the different schemes before we move onto the application process itself. Listeners, always make sure to ask me to ask this question. What’s the starting salary, or what can people expect to start on?

Brian: £27,500 is the starting salary, plus allowances, and the usual kind of perks and benefits of working for a large organization, and then it’ll just grow from there year on year.

James: Excellent. Not too shabby.

Brian: Nope.

James: We’ve whetted listeners’ appetite for applying, so let’s delve into the application process itself, then. Would you like to take us through what the application process looks like?

Brian: For me, I think I would say there are six key stages in the process. The first is, actually, I would say, research the company. Obviously, you’re not strictly a stage in a selection process, but I think it’s good advice to check out any company before you apply. Decide if you even want to apply, so look at things: does the company offer what you’re looking for in a career, is the company’s values aligned to what’s important to you, is the sort of program that’s being offered what you think you’d actually like? And of course, just check you meet the entry criteria. As mentioned earlier, don’t try to fudge it. You need to have those actually. Not beginner Spanish. You’ll need the strong language skills or the 2:1 degree for the programs. For the finance one, you need the language skills, particularly.

Secondly, having done your research, you’re now clear, DS Smith is for you. For us, you apply online. Just submit your CV, and if you’re not sure, again, just go to the DS Smith early careers to find our website, find out more and apply there. When you’ve applied, we review your CV, and if you have what we’re looking for, as outlined earlier, we’ll invite you to complete some online assessments: pretty straightforward verbal, numerical, and logical reasoning. It shouldn’t be too hard for most graduates, to be fair.

Past those, we’re going to meet a benchmark, and the fourth stage is being invited to the short competence interview, which is probably going to be with me, and yes, I’ll be nice, I’ll be honest, I’ll be fair. If you pass the competency interview, within the final stage of our selection process will be a virtual assessment centre, which will be held online in June, and candidates who get that far will get all the details of how it’s going to work and what’s involved, etc, and anything they need to do to prepare.

The sixth stage, and again, it might not be seen as part of a typical selection process, but for us, the final stage is passing and getting an offer to start on the programs. We consider this a stage in our process, as we know signing up is not the same as turning up. We will continue to help you prepare for that transition to the world of work to provide any insights into DS Smith, a buddy in the form of chats and advice, some stuff to read beforehand just to accelerate your induction. Lots of things to ensure you arrive feeling prepared and ready. You wouldn’t turn up at the start of a 10K race or a 26-mile marathon without having done some training. In the same way, we don’t expect you to turn up on your first day of work not knowing what to expect, so very much that kind of offer stage is our sixth stage. Does that make sense, does that help?

James: That’s brilliant. Maybe then if we just delve into each of those in turn. You mentioned apart from the research stage the first stage is submitting a CV. From the listener’s point of view, it’s good. It’s a lot less work than having to fill in 10 200-word competency type online questions. In terms of your specific preference on a CV, you’ll have been seeing hundreds of people applying, so far, 1000s of people applying this year. What’s letting people down with their CVs at the moment?

Brian: Two key things will always, always — let me put it at three. Three key things will always let you down. First one is just keep it short. I don’t want to have to go to four, five. I’ve seen a 23-page CV this year so far.

James: Seriously? 23 pages?

Brian: 23 pages of CV, and it’s like I was trying to read a book of some sort. I don’t need that level of detail. Honestly, I’m not going to read that level of detail. I don’t need paragraphs in every tiny, little thing you’ve done. I want it nice and simple, the degree, any work experience, key hobbies and pastimes. Just, I want a sense of who you are, but very importantly, I want to make sure I can screen it quickly and then see if you meet the criteria.

The second thing is don’t hide details. Be honest on the application form, otherwise I’m just going to call you and ask you, or if the CV’s not great anyways, this could be the deciding factor. Please put on your degree classification so that you’ve got a 2:1, or a 2:2 or a first. Just make that a little bit clear. Obviously, if it’s a first, sell yourself, mention it, say, “Yes, I’ve got a first.” Don’t hide it away. I’ve seen a lot of students try to say, “I went to this university, and this university is ranked, or this business school is ranked this high in the world,” and that’s great, but that’s not you. That’s the university you went to. How did you do in that degree, that dissertation? What was your end result? If you’re still studying, what do you predict?

I know something like 90% of students in the UK market will predict a 2:1 or first, but can you get that? I still want to see in the CV what are your grades. Otherwise, I’ll get a little suspicious that you’re trying to blag it a little bit. You maybe have a 2:2 or you’re not on track. Just be honest in the CV and don’t hide information.

The third thing, it’s a classic: mistakes in the CV, typos, just the kind of simple, simple things that, really, if you just read your CV properly. I’m dyslexic, I know I spell things wrong all the time, so I have learnt over the years that I need to print stuff off, and actually the best way to proofread is to print and read it, line for line, possibly with a pen on the line and things. Don’t just slap it together and send it off. I’ve literally seen candidates apply and they forgot to add their degree details on it, or they spelled their name wrong, or worse, the phone number and email isn’t correct, and I just can’t contact them even if I wanted to progress the application. Just that little final check on areas, get a friend to proofread it, or a parent, or somebody.

Get the length correct, don’t write too much. One or two pages is absolutely fine to give me the intro. Don’t hide the details. You know I’m looking for it. It is on the requirements. Try to avoid mistakes on the CV, typos, or just errors, or formatting errors. Keep it nice and neat. Does that help?

James: That’s very helpful, and one of the spectrum you’ve got there, 23-page CV, which I still can’t really get my head around. Are you more of a one-page, just keep it nice, and short, and sharp, and a good one-page CV, or do you prefer a two-page, or is it –?

Brian: I prefer a two-page, and the only reason I prefer a two-page is because when students like to cram everything onto a one-page document, they tend to just use really, really small font in very, very narrow-lined pacing and really stretch the margins to the limit. It feels like you could have really gone to a page and a half. Just trying to cram it all onto one page, it’s common of the business schools, MBA type CVs, and you don’t need to. It’s kind of counterproductive that I can’t see it as easily as possible. Nice little two pages, not too wordy, just key points, keep the format simple and readable, and that’ll increase your chances. Yeah, I will read the CVs. I’m not horrible, but try not to cram everything onto just one page. Try to — if you have to spread it over a page, another two pages, that’s absolutely fine.

James: That’s good advice. Listeners, if you find yourself getting down to font 6 to squeeze something onto your CV, then you’re doing something wrong. There’s no point in sending it if people can’t read it. That is good advice. Brian, what percentage of people do you think fail at this initial stage?

Brian: I think we’re not unusual in this part of the process, this is a basic CV screen. We probably only progress, maximum, 30% of the candidates through. That’s really because students apply — it’s particularly for the finance program. There’s a large number of students who have applied who just don’t have second language. They try to blag that they’re studying Spanish, or they did the GCSE in German, and I’m like, “Now, if I’m going to send you, maybe on your first placement or second placement, to Germany and you’ve got to live and work there and sort out accommodation, pay bills, a little bit of hello and ‘Can I buy a train ticket?’ is not going to cut the mustard. You’re going to have to have some solid language.” Unfortunately, a lot of candidates have applied and just haven’t got our basic criteria for the role.

It sounds quite harsh, but I know, in a lot of companies, the screening process is quite hard, but I’d rather say no at that point than put you through, and then you get to the assessment centre, and one of our stakeholders who speaks German or Spanish tries to chat to you, and it becomes embarrassing. I’d like to check up front, and the few candidates I haven’t been clear, I’ve called them and had a chat, and checked their language skills just because for you to live and work, you need the skills. I’m not just being overly pedantic and fussy. It is a requirement of being successful in the role.

James: I completely agree. Moving onto the next stage then, which is the online testing phase. I know from some of the clients I coach, some people tend to underestimate this stage and just assume that GSCE maths or whatever will just take them through it. I do find this is something you do need to put practice into just to make sure you’re on top of your game for this stage.

Brian: I think, for me, the advice for the psychometric test is really take the fear out of it, and you can only do that by practicing. Top level advice on the online assessment is just it requires a high level of concentration for a short space of time. When you’re doing them, make sure you’re in a place where you can focus, you’ve got good internet connection, no one’s going to disturb you. A pro tip would be if you think about your natural daily circadian rhythm, so when are you most at your creative, when are you most tired, when do you need various — where you perform best in different avenues in your daily life.

I know, for example, in the morning time, I’m quite good at just knocking through and very low-level high-volume admin tests. I know I can kind of flag a little bit around lunchtime, so I think I’ll work on something which is quite easy to do, but it takes a little bit of time, and then I know in the afternoon is where I’m at my most creative, and that’s when I’ll start picking up any kind of projects that I need to do more of. I often get a spike in the evening, so I often read, I work in some other stuff in the evening, some personal stuff. I know where my key peaks and troughs are.

For that, I know the kind of high-volume, low difficulty quite quick transaction stuff is in the morning time, so that’s when I would do the online assessments, and that’s where I feel I’ll probably perform the best. I wouldn’t do it just before lunch, and I’m tired, and hungry, and just trying to squeeze it in. Equally, you don’t need to do them all in one go. You can do one test, one later that day, or one in the next day. It’s fine. We give you 10 days to do three tests. The tests can take up to 18 minutes, maximum, per test, so it’s easily doable over a coffee break.

Don’t push it too far, but do them when you think you’re performing your best, and as I said, I think there’s a high level of concentration in a short space of time. Obviously, practice. You’re right, James. Don’t go straight in and do one with a highly overly confident attitude, and try to do it in a sensible way. We will make a decision on this, and if you don’t meet the benchmark, then you will be rejected, so give it your best shot.

James: That’s great advice there. The next stage you mentioned was a competency interview. Would this be a video one or is it just a phone interview?

Brian: We offer both. It is a live one, so we can do Skype. You can join video if you want to, do phone call. Funnily enough, most candidates have opted just for a straightforward phone call. That is the default preference, and I’m fine with that. I want to make sure you’re comfortable and operating in the comfortable way. I know a lot of students, because of the lockdown, have gone home, no longer in a single apartment where no one will disturb them, they’ve got family, they’ve got things going on, or they’ve got low internet connection. I’ve had a couple of instances where people have had to borrow a friend’s mobile phone for me to call and to do the interview. I offer you can do any of the three, but most, so far, if not all, actually, have gone for telephone interviews.

James: Any advice, at this stage then, for the competency questions?

Brian: Prep. Prepare in advance. Think about the examples you can bring, research the company. It’s very basic. You’re going to apply for an organization, and we are going to ask you why. Why do you want to work here? If you fluff that question, you’re going to kick yourself, and that’s going to put you in the back for the rest of the interview. Really, be prepared for the interview, be able to clearly articulate why you want to join the organization.

I normally advise students to break it down to three things. Know your facts, and figures, and big numbers in an organization. Like I said earlier on, the FTSE 100, 30,000 people, 250 countries — let’s get it right. 250 locations across 37 countries. Stuff like that, who are our key people? So, know your facts, then know what’s news. Look up our social media, look up our website, find out more about what we’re currently doing, and things that we’re up to at the moment, any recent innovations and developments.

Then the third one is put that together. Having done all your research, what is it that really made you think, “Yes, I actually want to work there.” Make it personal, make that connection, show the interviewer you resonate in some way with our values, or reach an initiative, idea, anything we’ve done that made you cross that line from interested in our organization to actually wanting to be an employee of the organization. We want to hear that. It’s really good for an interviewer when the candidate tells us something we missed. “I didn’t know we did that,” or, “I didn’t know we were doing that.” That shows real prep, real insight, and shows that passion and interest in the organization that you’ve quantified you’ve not just quoted facts. You’ve actually said, “This is what I really want to join your organization,” and that really gets people across the line.

James: That’s quality advice, definitely, and I find, again, with some of the people who I’ve been coaching, they try and apply to too many companies, and if you try and apply to too many companies, then you’re just not able to go into that level of detail that you need to impress to go into that level of research because you just haven’t got the time to do the research. You just come up short when you do get asked these obvious questions of, “Why do you want to work here?” and, “What’s different about us compared to our competitors?”

Brian: Yeah. I’ve outlined on our website, all the stages and processes, but overall, I think what I’d like to get across to your listeners is that what they can expect from our selection process is honesty and help. We’ll guide you through the process as much as we can so there’s no surprises. There’s stuff on our website. We’ll tell you what’s involved in the next step we invite you. However, in return, we expect you to come prepared to succeed. We’ll encourage you to practice the online tests, as I said, we’ll outline the things we’re looking for. We’ve already done that on our website, what we look for in an ideal candidate. Guess what? What are we going to ask you to demonstrate during this selection process? It’s those things exactly. In essence, we want you to really shine through the selection process, and obviously, if you do, we’ll offer you the role. We’re trying to help you help yourself, if that makes sense.

And then as I’ve said, be prepared. For me, skills eat nerves for breakfast, so be confident in yourself, because if you can’t convince yourself you can do the job, you won’t be able to convince the interviewer. I’ll just add you should temper that, and be the right sort of confident. That is confident enough to ask the question, but not so confident to think that you know the answer. We want candidates who can bring fresh ideas, new ideas, help us innovate, continue to be successful, help grow the company even more. But, if you think you can come in, and disrupt everything, and tell us what we’re doing wrong, and act and behave like we hired you as a CEO, then you won’t get past the selection process. Be prepared, be confident, but not overly confident.

James: Excellent, and the final stage then is the virtual assessment centre. Listeners will be well-versed with what an assessment centre might hold, but I think a virtual one is probably something that’s going to be a lot more common going forward. Brian, can you maybe just run us through how a virtual assessment centre will work.

Brian: Basically, you log on from the comfort of your own home to prepare to the destination. We’ll give you a link, and you’ll probably log in with your password so we know it’s you, and you feel secure that you’re in the right place. The assessment centre is a variety of exercises, so we’ll have a group exercise, we’ll have an analytical exercise just to test your ability to analyse information, and data, and reply, have a response to it, have an interview where senior stakeholders will ask you to prepare a presentation. You can get your key skills, of course, giving you that opportunity, and then basically a group exercise interview, another exercise, and then the presentation. We’ll be done, hopefully, by 2 o’clock in the afternoon. You can log off and go have lunch.

During the course of the day, we’ll have chat rooms available so you can talk to us if there’s any technical issues, or ask some queries. We’re trying to get our graduates to join as well so they can be on hand for that kind of hints, and tips, and questions you can ask in between the exercises, or just chat and know what it’s like to be a grad in there. It’s basically a lift and shift of our standard assessment centre. Exercises, but converted, so it’s all managed online from the comfort of your own home.

James: Any advice you’d give to listeners for the virtual group exercise?

Brian: Virtual group exercise is going to one to think about because you’re no longer in the same room, so how do you prevent from talking over each other? Basically, there’s a little lag in your video connection or something like that, so try to be visual, and more visual than normal. You might want to wave on the screen, raise your hand, give it a second for everyone to notice. It’s just a typical group exercise, yet you might want to say something, and if there’s other people constantly talking over you, you need to learn to manage that somehow.

That’s a whole different conversation, but try to make sure you are — like any kind of video or online meeting, you could be heard, you could be seen to a darker background, stuff like that. The group exercise, the hardest part is getting in and engaging the conversation. We’ll have the chat window, as well, open, so you can put a few comments in there saying like, “Can I just add a point in a second when you’re ready?” and just use it that way.

Just think a little bit more how you use the tools available as opposed to just jumping in and do what you’d normally do in a group exercise in person where you might move your hand and wave a little bit, or tap the table or something. Just think about you have to do it virtually now. We’re probably going to give a few tips in advance on the assessment centre on the things to think about how to rethink things like this in a virtual environment. We’ll do that as part of the invite.

James: That’s going to be interesting. As I said, I think companies are going to be using a lot more going forward, so it’s something. It’s skills you have to get on top of, so you’ll have to keep an eye out for those hints and tips as you create them then. Before we move onto our weekly staple questions, do you have any final hints and advice for people how they can stand out from the crowd throughout the whole application process?

Brian: I was going to say about that confidence and being prepared. I think you mentioned before, this is the part you’re interested in is the video interview. At the assessment centres, we’re going to have video interviews, as part of live interviews. Just in terms of preparing for that and feeling more prepared and less nervous and building that confidence, if you are doing a video interview, I would advise three core things around preparation, technology, and location.

The first one I’d say is prepare like you would for any interview: research the company, remind yourself of your key skills, get dressed as if you were going to go into the company’s office, and just do the usual preparation for any normal, any other type of interview. Just don’t forget the preparation. Secondly, I’d say check your technology. I’m sure many of us have gotten much more familiar with various online, many technologies, Zoom, Skype, MS Teams, Houseparty, and there’s others out there.

Don’t let that familiarity fail you. Check it all again before the interview. If the employer offers you a trial run, take the opportunity, let them connect and make sure it all works. Does your video connect? Is the camera positioned correctly? Does your microphone work? Can they hear you? Do you need to use headphones? Is the volume okay? Can you hear them? Be ready to share your screen if you have to present. Practice all this remotely, so that will help you remove any worries on the day, or any tech queries at least.

Finally, check your location. Apart from signal strength and that you can be seen and heard, make sure you avoid background noise or distractions, and make sure that you won’t be interrupted. Tell the people in the house or who you’re living with that you’re doing an interview and they’ll have to wait until it’s over before coming in to where you are. Recently, we’ve had a webinar where a woman presented from inside her wardrobe. Well, it was a walk-in wardrobe with good lighting, but the point is she knew, in there, she wouldn’t be interrupted and there’d be good sound, etcetera.

People are being creative at the moment and people are accepting that. People are more accepting with interruptions because they’re having them too, but you still don’t want that to happen during your interview. Tell your mother not to bring in their fresh pile of ironing, tell your boyfriend not to call out for you to come back to bed in the middle of your interview, and don’t have pizza delivered during the middle of the interview. You’ll be surprised what I’ve seen over the years.

Overall, I’d say prepare as if it was a face-to-face interview, check your tech, and check it and prep your location too, if that makes sense, and don’t be tempted to do those fancy background. They’ll just distract the interviewers. They’ll know it’s fake when you move around, and they’ll just get curious, “What’s really behind that fake background?” Just show your kitchen wall or your cover, that’s fine. We’re not recording them, so we’re pretty fair. The interviewers themselves will be dialling in from their house as well. It’s actually an opportunity to build up a little bit of rapport. Don’t hide away from it.

James: That’s very useful advice, so listeners, definitely take on board all of the top tips there from Brian. Brian, thank you so much for that. Let’s move on then to our weekly staple questions. I’m interested for your responses here. Question number 1, what book would you recommend to listeners?

Brian: I would recommend Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Erikson. It’s an embarrassing book to read on the train, but it’s also a very useful book to help you understand the type of person you’re dealing with and how to best interact with them. It’s all based on insights and people being personality type categorized by colour. You might be a red, or a yellow, or a green, or blue, and the book defines all that, and helps you identify the different types of personality, and then helps you obviously identify yours as well, and then how you can adjust your communications, and your behaviour, and your kind of approach to get to a much more effective relationship with these different types of people. Very well-written, very funny, very insightful, and a highly-recommended book. It’s Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Erikson.

James: I could do with reading that, and it’ll be one that’ll help you through the application process, and then also one that’ll help you when you settle down to start work as well. Again, check out the show notes at GraduateJobPodcast.com/DSSmith where there’ll be links to everything we discussed, a full transcript, and also the book recommendation there. If you click and buy it online, you never know. You might be getting it delivered in DS Smith packaging. Next question. What one website or internet resource would you point listeners to?

Brian: Again, I’ll be cheesy and something a bit of a cop-out, but I’m actually going to recommend you just visit your university career’s website. I work a lot with universities and I know they put a lot of effort into providing a lot of help and resources for students out there who are job hunting at the moment. Not just articles or who to connect, but obviously details of upcoming events, including online webinars of employers and other experts. I think go there, have a look. It’s all there to help you get your dream job, so I’ll definitely recommend your university career’s website.

James: That’s cracking advice, and I think one that’s often overlooked by listeners. I know they’ve come on leaps and bounds from when I was at university, and from looking at some of them recently, they do have some really cracking content on there, so definitely worth checking out, and take advantage of any mock interviews or mock assessment centres that there might be, and make sure you’re on the mailing list so you can find out when companies like DS Smith are rolling into your universities. Definitely, top tip there. Final question then, Brian. What one tip would you give listeners that they can implement today to help them on their job search?

Brian: One more tip? What I’ll tell you is just bear in mind, deception and exception don’t go well together. Deception and exception don’t go well together. I know they rhyme, they sound similar, but the message is don’t lie on your CV and hope that, when an employer does get to know you, they’ll forgive your little mistake and make an exception and hire you. Employers won’t. No one will hire a candidate being deliberately deceptive. Don’t say you’ve got a 2:1 degree, when actually you’ve got a 2:2. Don’t get a friend to do an online assessment for you, because we will find out. We want to see your degree certificate as part of the offer, and we will rescind if it’s not what we look for, and with the online assessments, we’ll validate that score either assessing you in other ways at the assessment centre or to the rest of the process. We’ll know, basically, so don’t try it. We won’t forgive it.

I know we’re all more than the sum of our parts, and then those parts are assessed separately. They don’t often meet a singular benchmark, and it can be frustrating. It’s a bit like life asking you to roll a 7 with one dice, but this doesn’t mean you’re a bad or a poor candidate. It just means you’re not right for the role, and you’ll probably enjoy success in a different role in a different company. Don’t try to deceive your way into a role that isn’t right for you anyway.

Be honest with yourself and in your application, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned from my 14-plus years of recruit, it’s that if a role is right for you, you’ll get it. Just trust me on that. There is a role out for you, and if it’s the right role for you, you will get it. Does that help?

James: That’s amazing. Brian, thank you so much for your time today. What’s the best way that listeners can get in touch with DS Smith?

Brian: Just go search for DS Smith early careers, and you’ll find our website for all the information, and then have a look around our website. It’s DSSmith.com. Find out more about the Ellen MacArthur, or circular supply chain, all the different programs, and find out about the business, the packaging, the recycling, and the paper business. Have a look. When I found out about it, I was fascinated, and I’m really happy I’m working here now.

James: Listeners, don’t forget, applications for the packaging and finance scheme are still open up to the end of May 2020, so you will have about three weeks to get the applications in for when this goes live. Brian, thank you so much for appearing on the Graduate Job Podcast.

Brian: You’re welcome.

James: There you go, many thanks to Brian for his time. Doesn’t that sound like a couple of cracking schemes. The finance scheme in particular with the placements around Europe is an amazing opportunity. The emphasis DS Smith puts on developing graduates and seeing them as the future leaders of the business means that you will do well which ever scheme you apply to. And speaking of applications, they are still open for another 3 weeks as this episode goes live, and you can get your applications in until the end of May. If you do need some help with your application to DS Smith, or any other application, and want to make sure you are ready for the initial application, interviews and assessment centres, check out graduatejobpodcast.com/course to find out details of my soon to be released online course which will tell you everything you need to know to get the graduate job. That is everything from today, join me next week when we tackle the subject of getting rejected from a graduate job. Not a happy topic, but one you need to be ready for. I hope you enjoyed the episode today, but more importantly I hope you use it, and apply it. See you next week.