Episode 129: 28 Graduate recruitment mistakes, with Brian Sinclair

January 21, 2023 Podcast

Hello and welcome to the 129th episode of the UK’s number 1 career podcast, and I’ve got a very special episode for you today. Joining me back on the show by popular demand is graduate recruitment expert and best-selling author Brian Sinclair, who discusses his new book ‘28 Recruitment Mistakes: And how you can avoid them’. In the show today we discuss the key mistakes you might be making as you apply for a graduate job and how they could be holding you back from career success. We cover each stage of the graduate application process and what you need to do to impress and sail through to the next round, and the howlers to avoid, that will see you getting rejected. No matter what companies you are applying to, this is an episode you won’t want to miss. The only link you need to remember from today is www.graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes where you can find a full transcript, and links to everything which we discuss, that’s www.graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes.

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • What graduate recruiters are really looking for from candidates
  • The insider secrets of how to pass each stage of the graduate application process
  • Common mistakes that rejected candidates make
  • The things you should NEVER say in a job interview
  • The key things that will make you stand out as you apply for a graduate job

SELECTED LINKS INCLUDE:

Announcer: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, your home for weekly information and inspiration to help you get the graduate job of your dreams.

James: Hello and welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each episode I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, graduate recruiters and career coaches who bring decades of experience into a byte size show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had when I graduated.

And welcome to the 129th episode of the show, like the proverbial bad penny I’m back to dispense some classic careers advice joined by the brightest and best in the world of graduate recruitment, as today we have friend of the show Brian Sinclair back with us. Brian is back to discuss his brilliant new book “28 recruitment mistakes and how you can avoid them”. No matter what company you are applying to, no matter what the graduate scheme is, no matter what stage of the process you are at, this episode is going to help. So without further ado, let’s get straight into it.

But before we do, quick message to say that if you want some expert career coaching to help you get you through a graduate interview or assessment centre I am your man. Check out the shownotes at graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes where you can find out more. You only get one shot at each company so don’t leave anything to chance. Ok, on with the show.

James: I’m very pleased to welcome you back to the show for the third-time graduate recruitment guru, friend of the show, and now a bestselling author as well. Welcome, Brian Sinclair.

Brain Sinclair: Hey, James. Thanks for having me on again, I’m pleased to be here.

James: No, thank you for joining us. And today we are going to discuss in detail and as I mentioned your bestselling book “28 recruitment mistakes and how you can avoid them, advice from over 15 years of graduate recruitment experience”. So, Brian, it’s been a couple of years since you were last on this show with episode 93 when you talked about getting a graduate job at DS Smith. So, yes, do you want to fill us in on what you’ve been up to, over these last couple of years?

Brain Sinclair: Yes, so I had a cracking time at DS Smith loved what they did and working for those guys, it was an interim gig, which I was grateful to have with actually two interim gigs. They liked me so much they brought me back for a second, interim gig. But then, I got offered a full time permanent role, and left them and May last year I’ve been with, another company since then, and I’ll be changing roles again soon. So, onwards and upwards change, still all in grad recruitment, grad development, that kind of early career space. I still, still kind of love that area and looking forward to the next step in it.

James: Brilliant. And tell us, how did you come to write your book? Was this the labor of love over lockdown, or how long has this been sort of bubbling under?

Brain Sinclair: It’s been bubbling a while to give you the kind of potted history. It was initially an idea to do a presentation at a career services. It’s in the book in detail, but I realized students were been given lots of advice of what they should do, but there was very little in terms of, well, don’t do it that way, or actually don’t actually do that at all, their interpretation of some of the advice was a little bit off, shall we say. So, what I started doing with sharing, at various university events, here’s what I think you should do instead, here’s what I’ve seen someone actually doing in the university or at an assessment center or in an interview. And I was thinking, oh dear, maybe not. So, I kind of shared some of those stories back, but then I said, well, I can’t just tell them all what not to do.

So I was saying, well, here’s actually some examples of what to do instead or here’s what I’ve seen it done well based on either a candidate getting a job or the hiring manager being very happy with what was actually done, and then started to share that and then kind of did that a couple of times over different universities seemed to go down quite well. It was an unusual way, a unique different way, I suppose, of giving those insider tips and information to the students. It was like, a bunch of graduate outtakes, but it wasn’t the graduates in the rooms you could learn from other people’s mistakes. And then just kind did it on and off over a few years, then I had to write out the presentation in more detail because it got to the stage where other people were trying to deliver it as well, people I was working with. So I was trying to write some fairly detailed notes and a lot of the stories and examples in there. And then, I was made redundant for that job where I was then lockdown happened and I just said, well, when I looked at all the notes for actually notes on a PowerPoint slides, thought “Wow, put them all into a word that’s just how much this actually is.” It racked up about 12,000 words. So I said, bang on how much do I need for a book? And I looked up and the advice online was 15,000 for a kind of a fact book and then it was like 20,000 for a novel. So, okay, let’s see if I can kind of add to it, add some more stories, add more examples, and as look would have it, yes, there’s a job I do, there’s a lot of extra stories popped up and good and bad examples popped up.

So yes, by the time I finished it and kind of shared it with the publishers, etcetera, I think it got close to 20,000 words actually just kind of adding things into it and taking a few things out as well. So, it was a fairly iterative process I think one of the biggest stages where was actually saying to somebody, I think I’ve written a book, would you mind looking at it? That’s quite a daunting experience, actually sharing it so well in good giving the advice out in the room where it’s not being recorded, but when you’re writing it down for posterity and getting somebody to look at it and peers to review it that’s quite scary. So, thankfully a couple of friends said, yes, it’s a good book I think we think you should go forward then was then going to a publisher, like someone officially having a look at it. And then that’s quite scary as well, and you kind of send it off kind of holding your breath and then you’ve, thankfully the publishers came back, discover your bounce little and then Nicki and Sharon over there, and Dave liked it. They said, yes; let’s just turn this into a book.

So, after that was a few kind of, back and forward edits and typos, I think I’ve mentioned in the book, and I am dyslexic, so they had a couple of things to kind of work out and figure out and edit. And then, yes, it just came out the only thing about it is have they gone through so many edits, some of the stories I would’ve found hilarious originally having written them and rewritten them. I don’t know how many times they’ve always lost for me they’ve sort of lost their edge, but they’re going to help when people read it, they still get the original funny element of them. And also, as I said, you learn from other people’s mistakes, but hopefully there is some solid advice in there for students that actually help them get their idea job. So, fairly iterative process, but a labor of love as they say James, I’m quite pleased it got there in the end.

James: Oh, brilliant. And I enjoyed it, I read a lot of books on recruitment and I was laughing out loud at several anecdotes that you mentioned, and we’ll go through some of those today. But yes, it’s a great book for grads who are applying for jobs to read and you can check out the book or links to the book in the show notes switch today you can find over at graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes where we’ll link to the book there. So Brian, if we kick off at the beginning and sort of go through iteratively the application process. So let’s start by, starting at the beginning, which is always a good place to start with applications. So let’s start with, why recruiters believe in facts not faith? Take us through this one. What is the idea behind this point?

Brain Sinclair: The other recruiters, so a lot of students would put fairly grandiose statements on their applications of CV’s, make these claims to their grade at this and brilliant at that and amazing other things. And that’s fine, I kind of get, you might have the believe have these qualities, but for a recruiter, I need to see the evidence of it. So you talk about people with application forms or maybe on a CV you might talk about what your responsibilities were, what you were supposed to do, but I want to get to the facts. Show me the evidence, show me the measurement. What have you actually done that warrants that big grandiose claim? And if you have it, if you have that, great communication skills, leadership skills, etcetera, then it shouldn’t just be a claim you have to make at the top of a CV or an application form that should come through in the application and show me evidence of it.

I think the example, I mentioned in the book was about this guy who told this amazing story about how he led his football team to win this amazing kind of final game and the season, and it was a bit of a thriller and there was all sort of dramas in it. And then when we kind of read the application, which was sort of quite good. So we had a chat with him at an interview stage, and then we drilled into it. We were trying, how did you lead the team and what was the experience we drilled into actually the facts and the evidence behind the claim. It turned out actually he wasn’t the captain of the team the captain had been injured at the last match, and he stepped in and wore the armband, but the actual captain with his injury was on the sidelines leading the team and telling them what to do and calling all the play.

So, he kind of almost passed it off as his achievement and making the big claims of leadership and teamwork, etcetera. When we drilled into it, I’m going to get into the facts behind it, there wasn’t much there. So yes, you can make all the claims you want, that’s absolutely fine, but a good interview process will get down and drill into that and get you to prove, yes, you are actually that good. So, that’s what I mean, we want to see the facts and the detail, not just the big grandiose claims. Does that make sense?

James: No, completely. And you do see that one just with CV’s, just the long laundry list of, I’m good at this and I’m good at that, and I’m good at that, and I’m good at that. And as you said, there’s nothing or very little to back it up, I’m a I’m a high performing, enthusiastic graduate, etcetera, but you can’t just have that long list without backing up with the evidence as you said, which is a key thing but yes, the…

Brain Sinclair: If you have it mentioned it, but if you don’t have it, don’t claim.

James: Definitely, yes, completely. And that football example, as you mentioned, yes, we’ve all sort of slightly exaggerated some bits in the CV possibly. Well, did he end up getting an offer that candidate, do you remember?

Brain Sinclair: No, we got to the interview, we kind of drilled in to realized, oh, hang on a minute, and then he just didn’t have the credibility after that. So, not just that there was other examples and things I remember them correctly but yes, it was a nice start and fair play too it got him into an interview, but it just didn’t follow through after that just the facts just weren’t there to back up the claims. And fortunately he was in, I’m sure he went that to something better, something more suited for him, but not the role we were interviewing for at that point.

James: Yes. As you said if your examples are found to be not credible, it’s then difficult to keep your credibility as a candidate, if you have shown to be telling a few porkies so, the danger there. Moving on then to the next point, and this is one I completely agree with, and when I’m reviewing applications for the clients I coach, when I try and drill into them, is your section on a perfection as standard? Take us through this one, and what do you mean by this one?

Brain Sinclair: So, it may sound harsh or it’s only for the elite to have absolutely been the perfect candidate, and that doesn’t exist. What I’m talking about here is if you’re going to submit an application or a CV, the thing here is you have as long as you need. You’ve got weeks and months to write a CV, and you can always spend a day beforehand or even an hour beforehand, checking it before submitting it. And get a friend to read it, get someone to have a look over, run into a spell checker, run it through all these online tools to check your grammar, etcetera, and get it in. And then when it comes in the front of recruiter, if we’ve got an absolute ton of CV’s to go through and there’s a competitive market out there, and a good company will get more applications than they need that’s why we have recruiters, and that’s why you have selection process. We have to find a way of whittling down to the one candidate who’s going to get the job. So, you take that time get it right and it means sleeping on the CV or checking the next day that’s kind of what we should get to. It’s just get it as right as possible. Don’t submit it in with errors and mistakes or gaps or just silly typos, because then you give yourself the best chance possible to just get through to the next stage. So yes, that’s the advice take your time, don’t try to wizard off or send in a generic CV or just double check it’s kind of right. And then if you’re going to be editing it back and forth, you are going to miss things and as I said, I’m dyslexic, so I miss things all the time.

So, if you aren’t sure, it’s going to be absolutely perfect, just get a friend, have a look, read it, read it over and then when it comes through, the recruiter will receive it as a pretty good CV and you don’t get anything, anything, any points docked for silly kind of spelling or grammatical or just formatting error. So, it sounds harsh, must be perfect, but just take your time and get it as your CV, as a right as possible, and don’t lose marks for just silly mistakes. Does that make sense?

James: Absolutely. And for me, what does it say about you as a candidate, if you can’t be bothered to put the time and attention in to making sure that this initial application, whether it’s a CV, covering letter or on application or whatever might be, if you can’t be bothered to make sure that’s perfect, what’s that saying about you? It’s saying that your slapdash, have got poor attention to detail, etcetera, and with the tools you mentioned, I love Grammarly, it picks up, whereas word is good at just picking up spelling mistakes. Grammarly’s I find is much better at where you’ve maybe used the wrong word, Grammarly might pick that out. So, a word that’s spelled correctly, but the wrong word for the situation, Grammarly’s good at picking up that. So free tool, I’ll link to it in the show notes, make sure you just run applications through that it will pick up some things that you’ve missed, show it to friends, and get people to help you. If you can’t be bothered at this stage, what does it mean when you get the job? You’re not going to be bothered that either.

Brain Sinclair: Yes. And I think I read an online report, I don’t think I mentioned it in the book, but I have read an online report before that suggested after some, I think it was in Grit by Angela Duckworth. And it talks about one of the key things that show success. So people think, oh, it’s communication skills or problem solving or interpersonal skills or teamwork, whatever it is. And actually one of the, the biggest indicators of success is attention to detail so, what details to pay attention to at that point in time and solve that issue or spot that mistake or give something that bit more attention or care or kind of, you know, money towards our resources. And the biggest way of testing that actually is if you can’t pay attention to your own CV application form and get that right when it’s quite a critical stage in the selection process, what does that say about your attention to detail in your career and the job?

So wherever job you go into, it’s engineering, finance, sales, doesn’t matter, medical science, architecture, some roles, obviously details are important. But it’s just a good habit to have so we have to kind of focus in and pay attention to what matters at the time it matters and get it right. It’s a good indication of your future success and that’s from a, I believe, a kind of an over 20 year study in what are the key indicators of success people at different stages of the career. So, as I said, perfection sounds like a big high lofty demand, but take the time, get it right, get a chance to get progress in the selection process.

James: Brilliant. Great advice there. So, moving on in the selection process so we’ve gone successfully through the initial application stage following Brian’s advice. We’re now onto the fun favorite of online assessments, and traditionally your verbal reasoning tests, you’ve got your numerical reasoning tests, and now all of your fancy cognitive ability, personality based, gamification situation on judgments, is growing. What are your general thoughts on those, Brian? How can people get past this difficult stage?

Brain Sinclair: To kind of put my cards on the table, what I would say with a lot of these online assessments, particularly the generic ones, I’m not knocking them. I think they’re great, well designed, they serve a purpose, but if they’re fairly generic, they can just be there to test how interested a candidate is. Are you willing to go to the test? If you want this job, you’ll quite happily sit through these tests to get it. Sometimes they’re there because they’re just too many people applying and you need something to filter them out, whether it’s testing their commitment or their actual cognitive ability. But I also find people, humans, we are more than the sum of our parts, but if you try to measure those parts individually or score those parts individually, it never quite adds up.

So, some of the better ones are the ones where they’re more tailored to the company and they’re testing for things the company is clear on what you actually want to see in the ideal candidate. And they tend to be okay and work, and if your right for the job, you’ll pass, you get through. But the generic ones, they sometimes don’t add as much value to the selection process as they might be perceived or kind of positioned. So, I’m not wholly convinced they’re always applicable, but where they’re done well, they actually do help the selection process. So, if you want my advice in getting through them, the biggest things I kind of say is think about the attention span. So you have, as a human, a limited kind of locked in attention span and only think of something like 15 minutes in general. So, just pay attention there is a high level of concentration for a short amount of time and doing these tests. So do it at the right time of the day when you can apply that don’t do at the end of the day and you’re tired or first thing in the morning, you’re still a bit groggy from the night’s sleep, or just before lunch, when you’re a bit hungry and your blood sugar levels down, do when you’re at your peak, and have that locked in concentration when doing them. Also, think about if you can, don’t do them all in one go. You might get a bit cocky, think, well, I nailed the first one, I’m pretty good at this, I’m on fire let’s do the next one. Your brain will get hard, so you might do just as good, we might feel you doing as good in the second one, numerical reasoning first because that’s your strength, you’re good at math’s or whatever.

Then you do the verbal reasoning, I’m on fire, I did the very reasoning, but your brain is getting tired and if you have to do a third one after that and you think that’s when they start, you think, well, maybe I shouldn’t have done this one now. So, think about if you have, the company gives you 5 days, 10 days, 15 days, whatever it is to do two or three tests, do them on separate days, pick that right time of day and go for it and avoid that kind of fatigue so, just don’t do it all in in one go. And the last thing I’d say is practice the specific tests. Again, a lot of candidates will practice generic variable reasoning or generic numerical reasoning, but each supplier out there will try to make their tests unique, look unique, have different ways of testing the maths or, verbal reasoning is, you know, or cognitive reasoning tests.

Just if you can, if the company you’re applying for says, here’s some practices test, do with the practice test, just get that familiarity with the test and that will give you that extra margin of success when doing the test. Because you don’t have to kind of, you’re not spending as much time figuring out the way they’ve laid that out or the colors they’ve used or the font they have or the stall, whether it’s kind of cartoony or very kind of if it’s a photograph or whatever kind of way they’ve laid that out. If you’re familiar with that, you stop thinking about that and your focus is literally in on the actual question and spend less time doing it. I’ll just add one more in just thinking of this is, don’t get cocky. If you are doing the tests, they’re often, most of the more modern ones, more recent ones, they’ll up the ante if you are getting them all them right and quickly they’ll go, “Oh, this guy’s good, let’s test him.”

So, sometimes if the system automatically updates the next set of questions to be a little bit harder, and because you seem to be good and they want to test just how good you are. So, keep a steady rhythm if you’ve got 15, 20 seconds per question if you’ve kind of number of questions by the time and it’s available, and then maybe take the 10, 15 seconds per question. If you’ve got a couple of them in four or five seconds, pause, have a little think, make sure you’re staying kind of steady through it so you don’t end up getting a lot of extra question. I mean, if you’re great and you’re going to nail these things, by all means crack on my friend and get that top score. But if you’re not feeling super confident, perhaps just do a steady approach to the assessments and don’t get the extra hard questions added to your list. Does that make sense?

James: Yes, no, I didn’t know about the extra questions that are extremely sneaky but pretty good advice there. And it’s as you said, if you can specialize in the particular type of test you’re going to be doing and there’s a couple of great test providers that are linked to in the show notes over at graduatejobpodcast/mistakes. All they do is just provide practice tests and they like to, their unique selling point is that you will practice the same tests as the one you’re going to be doing, whether it’s banking for a particular bank or the particular SHL tests or whatever it might be you can practice, but practice does make perfect. And they’re annoying, they’re painful, but it’s just a game as Brain said, it’s to get people out of the process, too many people apply. It is a cheap and quick way to cull the herd of people who can’t be bothered who don’t want to put the time in, etcetera. A necessary evil for you to get through and then progress.

Brain Sinclair: I think it’s a generic test they can seem a bit evil, but as I said, if the particular employer you are going for has engaged with the assessment provider and become up a bespoke one or at least some sort of tailored one, they can often actually be quite helpful and it is a two way process, isn’t it James? So, if you feel that you are, you have to demonstrate the right skills to the role, then you feel more kind of confident that you’ve passed the tests and the right reasons and you’re confident going to the next stage of the selection process. But if you feel it’s just a very generic off the shelf one, yes, you might think, “I don’t need to do yet another one of these tests you want me to do to work for you”. So, they can help the company by well cutting down the numbers, but you can disengage some of the quite capable. Another way of putting it I think is a big difference between getting through and going through a selection process. Some candidates could quite easily get through the process, but they’ve been disengaged because they don’t quite buy into why they’re being put to all these assessments and they decide just not to go through the process. They think, you know what, I’ll just go elsewhere. So that’s a challenge for recruiters, get the balance right and candidate engagement so students who can get through the process are willing to go through the process if that helps.

James: Interesting point. And in terms of the process, I’m moving on to the next step, which is the interviews and I love your line in the book that a good interview should feel like a good first date. Tell us about this and why you think it’s important that the people you interview should make sure they’re not boring storytellers.

Brain Sinclair: So yes, I’ve sat through quite a fair amount of interviews I still do enjoy them I love talking to people, I love getting to know them, as an interviewer, I just am, if you’ve ever been interviewed by me as someone who just is genuinely interested in you, I may be uncovering things about you, I don’t ever want to hear again and we’re just not going to hear you. But I’m still interested in you as an individual I’m still interested in, in finding out more about you but some people just cannot tell a story, just cannot get to the point and it’s always ringing in my head, am I waffling on here? Have I gone on too much? And it’s just something I’m just super conscious of. So I was asked at an event, it was in, I think it was Southhampton University, one student said, give us your top tips of passing an interview.

And I was thinking, having been through a few interviews during that week. I think, well what is it? What is it now? I get the star technique and the situation, task, action result but I just thought, okay, let me overlay that with three things. If you’re to avoid waffling on and not quite getting to the point, you got to think of three things that’s length, personalization and relevance. So length is, set the scene, have the little kind of explanation of what the example is, but then tell it and then give the kind of conclusion, I don’t need extra information about the weather that day, what shoes you were wearing or what mood you were in just give me the example. If you get it right, then the interview doesn’t need to probe and clarify exactly where this was and what the context was they kind of, they get the details and if it’s too long, you’ve lost the interview there like tuning out. So, if you’re watching a YouTube video, you’re talking a minute, minute and a half if it’s not getting your attention, you are clicking to skip it and go onto the next video, you know our patince is very kind of, there’s a lot less patience our attention span is a lot shorter. So, get the length right, and keep the interview engaged. Then personalization. So tell the story your way, make sure it’s, it’s your version of the story you’re telling even it’s a fairly standard story about working in a group and one team member didn’t pull their weight whatever, we’ve all been there, try to give it what you have done and make remember you for who you were.

Make that kind of connection with the interviewer draw some sort of, rapport there so they remember you as the guy who solved this problem or averted this disaster and not the kind of, “well that was the one in the blue shirt, wasn’t it?” And then they’re kind of trying to vaguely picture you and you just become not remembered, you just become another face from that assessment center there or another candidate that interviewed. So, try to make it personalized and use the time to build that rapport with the interviewer and be remembered in a good way. And then relevance. The amount of times I’d ask a candidate to give an example where they’ve done something and solved a problem and I’ll maybe be interviewing for a consultancy job or an IT role or something like that, I wanted some sort of hard business skills, at least some sort of transferable skills that map into that.

And then they tell me about how they set up a pottery club, and how they kind of converted this old building and they got lots of friends and you’re kind of going, so, okay, that’s lovely and I’m cool that you’re interested in pottery and it’s quite a trendy hobby to have. But how does that tell me you can fix the website? And how does it draw the parallels for me? So, you have to make it clear why you telling that story, even if it’s not immediately obvious. Make sure it just link back to team working skills or problem solving or you’re detail orientated wherever it is that kind of shows you can actually do this job. So we might want to get to know you and know more about you and that’s lovely because you’re going to work with you as the whole person, not just as the task filler. But you got to tell in an interview that you can actually do the job as well, so use that advantage. When you’re giving examples in response to any interview, just make sure you get the, not too long, not too short. Make sure that you’re telling it in your way and getting to kind of remember you as an individual and someone who’s actually going to add value to the team or be a cultural add, and it makes you, the example is actually you can at least make it relevant to the role, otherwise it’s just another hobby you’re talking about and someone’s like, “eh, that’s lovely but that’s of no use to me whatsoever. Thanks very much all the very best. Good luck with your pottery business.”

James: That’s a great point there. And you mentioned the star methodology and from the clients I coach often at the beginning, if you think about the star methodology, there’s loads about the situation keep going on about the situation, too much detail about the situation, loads of detail about the task, what it was that they did and then often that’s it. Nothing about the action and certainly nothing about the result and you’re thinking, yes, I think we’re going to have to think about this and sort of, think about the structure there. But often can be as you talk in the next one, all cream and no milk.

Brain Sinclair: Yes, this is a bit of a weird when people kind of go, what’s this got to do with recruitment Brian? And it kind of came to me because we used to get, I think we don’t get as much now, but the milk get delivered in cartons a lot these days. But we used to get the glass bottles and we used to get the cream at the top of the full fat note for the kids and they loved, it was like a little treat for them and they come, that was great. So thinking, you can’t have the cream without the milk if the cream floats to the top. So, kind of similar to that, but what we’re looking for is these candidates who have that solid evidence behind what they say, making this big claim. You want to see, well yes, but show me the kind of experience you got that shows that it demonstrates that you are the cream floating at the top. Talk me through what you’ve actually done and talk me through kind of what you’ve actually achieved and what you’ve actually, walked on in the past, and how you’ve risen above your peers and you are actually the cream of the crop. So, not just talking about, you are in a team and the team did this or you were in a group organization and you were told to do this. I want to hear how you are the person who stood out, who kind of used your skill and experience and became that kind of top dog, or that’s probably bad question, but you became the kind of the standout candidate for whatever reason.

So, it’s about showing you have to the kind of experience and knowledge and the detail behind what you actually said. So, it’s about just reminding yourself of all the hard work you put into your achievements. So why are you proud of this example? Why you given this example an issue? Why are you putting in your CV? Just reflect back and say, well that was actually quite an achievement and I had to do extra hours for it I had to study extra for it, I had to work super harder had to go seek advice and help so I could actually achieve it. Just think about what is it that got you to that point and don’t gloss over the kind of claim and hope the interviewer kind of knows you were so on LinkedIn or read about it on your blog.

Make sure you’re demonstrating the evidence behind it, but also thinking to yourself, “Yes, that was pretty good and I did work hard to get that.” And make sure you get that across to the interviewer so they see you’re motivated and hard working and then it’s not just a bit of dumb look that you kind of where you’re making all these claims or got this achievement. You are someone who you can repeat that and deliver that kind of high achievement, again and again in ideally in this workplace. So yes, it is about flowing to the top and showing me kind of how you got there.

James: I love it. No, that’s such a great point. And I think, again, when I’m listening to teamwork examples, the key thing is how many times are you saying the word we and how many times are you saying the word I, as often with the teamwork examples, we did this, we did that, and then we did that and that was the outcome. It’s like, great, what did you do? We’re not hiring the team going to be hiring you, what specifically did you do? So, it’s just finding that balance with the teamwork examples there, something to think about there. Maybe one more on the interviews before we move on and this is one that definitely made me laugh out loud. You talk about past, present and future and there’s a brilliant story you’ve got here about when you were interviewing someone and the example that they gave.

Brain Sinclair: Oh yes. I can remember this does genuinely still make me tickle. So, we were interviewed for a fairly junior role and a guy we interviewing, going through various kind of competencies and what you could bring to the role. We asked one of the standard questions like give his example of where you took responsibility for something. So, I’m thinking, when you stepped up to take the lead or you led a group or you volunteered for something. No, not this kind of guy. I think he panicked James and he just came up with a random example where, yes, he and his cousin were actually out one night and they were trying to rob a car. They were trying to jimmy the door, and then they saw some blue lights and some cops coming towards him and they ran, and they kind of caught him and his cousin got away.

So what did he do? He took responsibility for the attempted crime and spent the night in the cells and had to picked up the next day by his parents. And I’m trying to keep a straight face in the interview James , and was just trying to give him feedback afterwards. I think he did realize, “Yes, that wasn’t probably a great example doesn’t show me as a strong candidate.” But you can see sometimes candidates just don’t quite tell the story properly, give a bit of a waffle, and trying to put in a buzz word in there and you just don’t have actually what you’re looking for. So the past, present and future is about kind of looking at the transferable skills. What do you actually have that you can kind of make it obvious that whatever you have in the past, you can apply to this job and you’re going to be good in the future longer term? You’re thinking and behaving and acting in a consistent way that shows you’re a good candidate. I will be a good employee and as lot of grad programs are labeled, you’d be a good future leader so because those transferrable skills, it helps. Does that make sense? Is that the one you’re thinking of, James?

James: That was the one I was thinking of and yes, I mean it shows he’s a go-getter, entrepreneurial, you know these are all good skills you want. But we’ve all been there under pressure and suddenly you come up with an example that might not be the best example, but listeners try and minimize your criminal exploits, when you are in job interviews probably would be the top tip for the day. But that did make me chuckle when I was reading that one. Let’s maybe move on to the case studies so you’ve progressed through the interview stage, you did well, you’ve made it to the assessment center and you’ve been asked to develop or come together with a case study. So, let’s go through some of your top tips and thoughts on this one Brian, so one that I enjoyed was thoughts not theory. What advice would you give here relating to this for case studies?

Brain Sinclair: So again, we talked before about, you know, you being an academically good candidate and knowing your stuff and having read all the books at university and studied your course in depth and then you come to an interview. And yes, you might be applying for a job that’s absolutely hardwired and very kind of linked to the role you’re going for. So, to probably ask you some pretty standard questions and want to get some examples from you. But we all find in the case set example, you read it and you give a like a typical model answer and it’s like a cookie cutter kind of clone. It’s template model answer, which is lovely and we kind of take the box, but then how are you showing your personality, how you’re shown you are actually a unique individual and actually have some good skills to bring?

So, you want just not the theory, not just the model answer, not the kind of the academic answer, we want your thoughts on it. So, in given a case study to read and analyze and show your kind of skill in kind of commercial awareness, just kind of analytical ability, maybe financials, kind of skills where creativity, wherever it is. Show your thoughts; show the interview, you are who and you bring something unique and different and special to the job. So yes, it takes a little bit of bravery you kind of might be nervous and stressed and you’re just trying to pass here, but if you can take that extra step, show that you’ve got a little bit more to you, you’ve read the newspapers, you’ve got to bit of common sense about you and you just thought about in a slightly different way as a little kind of a talk and off in a slight tangent, a bit of, blue sky thinking out of the box, think however you want to call it these days James, to show you’re a little bit more than just the output of your studies at university or your apprenticeship wherever it is, you actually have some unique to some new thinking in it. And I can tell you the number of people who have got places in the world of work because they are different. Just, okay, let’s get James and this one James can have some good ideas on this one he’s always thinking slightly out of the box in different, kind of angles and things. And employers will sit up and pay attention to that. You don’t have to be absolutely right, but if you get them thinking, man, that’s an unique approach to that, that’s actually quite good. That’s what’ll get you through and get you noticed and that’s what you want at the end of the day get noticed in a good way and get offered the job. So show your thoughts don’t just recite the theory. Does that help?

James: No, that’s good. And for me it plays an important part of about be interested in stuff that’s going on outside in the world of tech in the news and grab a subscription to the Economist, as a student you can get it for probably about 60p a week, which is a massive reduction on its sale price if you buy in the shops. They don’t even check if you’re a student or not, so you can just possibly might be talking from previous experience. But you can sign up for a student subscription anyway and it’s brilliant for just having random articles about stuff that you didn’t know you were interested in. And all this information is, just you can bring out interesting facts or come up with creative ideas when you get into that case study. Because you never know what the case study’s going to be on, it could be on something completely random. And you know it’s great then to just have the confidence to put your ideas forward in terms of coming up with creative things as Brian said.

Brain Sinclair: Yes.

James: So, moving on then, just conscious of time. So let’s, maybe move on to group exercises and with the clients I coach, when we get them to the assessment center stage, so there’s lots of prep, getting them ready for the interview, getting them ready for any group exercises or sorry, case studies they might do. But of course the group exercise is a key one and it’s one that’s can be difficult to practice. And one of the key things that you talk about here that resonated with me was the chapter on in it to win it. Do you want to take us through this one?

Brain Sinclair: Yes. I’m totally robbing a lottery tagline here, I think it was, you got to be in it to win it, you got to buy a ticket and you not going to win it. I think strange enough for the lottery, there’s some stat that says the odds of winning are about the same whether you buy a ticket or not, but if you win, your luck is in. But the point about it is just in a group exercise, you should get involved, pay attention and show the assessor you’re actually awake and alert or engaged. So, many candidates think, okay, I did well in the interview and I think I did okay in the presentation or I did okay in whatever the online assessments, whatever it was, or different exercises and they think you look into the group exercise.

If I stay quiet and don’t say anything stupid, then I’ll pass this too and, and I’ll do well. But what they don’t realize is yes, it’s a group exercise, but you are being assessed individually. There’s probably an assessor in the room who’s looking at you specifically and seeing what you do. And in most assessments people think that you start off, it’s a mark of 10, so we’ll start them off at a five and will dock points for everything stupid they say, and we add points when the intelligent comment they make, it doesn’t quite work like that. You start off at a zero and if you say good things, you get points and then you get a score and you kind of get recognized with adding good contributions. So if you say nothing, you stay at a flat zero.

They’re looking at you kind of going, “Does she understand what’s going on here? Does he have a clue? George over there hasn’t said a word. We’re 10 minutes into the exercise.” And you know we find the assessor is kind of like twiddling his thumb kind of flicking with his pen because there’s nothing to write down because you’ve said nothing. So, just get involved in the exercise and some very simple things you could do. You can just say yes, I agree, good point, well said. All those positive variable kind of affirmations just like that I like what you said that’s kind of going to write that down. Stuff like that is good you could take the time, you can manage the group, say, well I’m not sure I can kind of add anything intelligent to the exercise because it’s probably not your area of skill or what you’re familiar with. Could be as you said, a random topic, but you can least say, well let’s spend 10 minutes just having a quick chat. Let’s send 10 minutes right and that’s my ideas and structure the exercise that way and a lovely simple thing to do is just use people’s names. It shows you are, you recognize you’re dealing with other people in the exercise. So James, that was a good point I like what you said there, Brian that was, that was well said. So it shows you’re kind of engaged in the exercise, but please just do not stay silent that exercise is just as important and it’s all one of the strongest indicators of how you’re going to succeed in the world of work. Because if you think about it, when you go to the world of work, you will go and join a group of people you’ve never met before and you’re going to have to work with them to get projects done.

So, that’s exactly what we’re trying to mirror in a group exercise and assessment center and we are not going to pay you to join a company, join a team and sit in a corner and doing nothing. So, we want to see you can actually jump in with both feet. You don’t have to lead the group and suddenly transform into a massive leader overnight and dominate the exercise. Be yourself, but at least participate, vocalize what you’re thinking, nodding and saying, but positive affirmations, using people’s names, managing the time. They’re just good ways of engaging the exercise and just getting you through it. And yes, if you did well elsewhere you can still pass, but don’t lose that opportunity because you go through the exercise both sitting there silently and trying to avoid looking stupid because actually you are saying nothing. You are looking not stupid, but not like the ideal candidate, so get involved.

James: Yes, I can remember, invigilating on a group exercise and I had two people I was marking for and one of them literally didn’t say anything the entire time and was just sort of there sort of smiling and nodding and smiling and nodding and it was just like, come on, give me something, give me something to go on. And the nerve must have just got the better of them and they… But as you said, there’s not a lot you can do, really good marks for smiling and nodding, but it wasn’t going to carry them through unfortunately. So, listeners, make sure you do get involved in this stage, and it goes back to the previous point we just made about you’ve got your thoughts, put them into practice, and don’t be scared about getting them out there and being confident. It can be difficult when people are maybe dominant and speaking over you or trying to speak over you, but just hold your ground, keep talking and, get those points in. Just give the person marking you something to go on which is crucial.

Brain Sinclair: Yes.

James: So let’s go for one more, and this is more for group exercises when they’re sort of back face-to-face, which is stand up, dumb down. Take us through this one, Brian, and the mistakes that you’ve seen people make here.

Brain Sinclair: Yes. So, this is kind of one of the things that started off while I was trying to do when speaking university. So, there’s lots of advice about group exercise showing you a future leader or potential leader have that leadership potential. And people want you to take the lead in exercise that’s the advice, if you want to get a job; you take the lead in the exercise, but just think about it for a second. If you aren’t very good at leading or there’s probably in the room someone who is and you try to kind of lead and not doing very well. It doesn’t actually help your application; you then have just exposed your kind of lack of skill in this area. You’ve stood up and you’ve taken the lead and it’s just fallen apart. It just didn’t quite work out for every reason nerves, lack of experience, just lack of practice you just don’t have basic facilitation skills and it can be hard. So, you’ve grabbed the kind of pen, the flip chart marker or the whiteboard marker and you’ve marched up to the front. You are now full in view of all the assessors and then suddenly realize most candidates often kind of, you hear this all the time in assessments is “my hand writing not that good”. So, why did you grab the pen? Why did you walk up to the flip chart? Why did you walk to the whiteboard? And then to realize, actually yes, as a 22 year old students, you should know about essays, whether your handwriting is actually good or not, and it is terrible. Why haven’t you practiced it? But that’s fair parents to talk to you about that one.

But you’ve kind of taken the lead and what I’ve seen is even worse than that. You suddenly kind of, you start writing what people are saying, you start trying write it verbatim and you’re like, you’re no shorthand secretary here. You don’t have those skills their skills of a bygone age, that’s not possible. And you’re right now trying to write everything people say there’s no structure to it whatsoever. You’re kind of sort of doing long-winded bullet points and you’re thinking about different colors and it’s just your head is spinning and then you’ve realized, “I’m a bit behind now what was actually said.” And you lean over to somebody else in the group and go, “What was just said there?” Now you’ve taken two people out of conversation. You are just not working in a group exercise, my friend. You are counterproductive at that point. So, if you can do that, if you have good facilitation skills, if you can’t structure random comments from a bunch of strangers in a room and you can’t put it into headings and you kind of do word association and link things together and

That is a real skill. And if you can do that well, I want to see you at an assessment center, that’s just an amazing skill to watch. But if not, you can still kind of quietly lead from behind you can still contribute, get involved in the exercise you can lead some with some thoughts and ideas, but still as part of the group and not exposing yourself in front of this as standing up and looking like I’m just dumb. So, work to your level of ability, see your skills and strengths. Don’t try to invent some skills right there in the middle of an assessment center, otherwise it’s just going to backfire on you. And no interviewer, no assessor enjoys watching that it’s cringe worthy to watch someone fail on their feet. And then it’s hard then psychologically for you to get back up after that and continue on with the next exercise because sometimes group exercises are at the start of the assessment center, and if you feel you’ve not done well, candidates can often be their own worst enemy and you keep playing that over in your head. So just play it to your strengths use the skills you have, don’t try to invent them in the day, sit down, look smart, don’t stand up and dumb down.

James: It’s doing that well, I know as a consultant, when I was, sort of drafted in, I was a junior consultant and, I’ll come along to this meeting. It was a senior meeting with lot of people and, I was a scribe so sort of taking notes, it is so tough, one listening to what’s been said and then realizing you’re writing that, “I’ve spelled that right? Oh, no, I think I’ve spell that wrong.” And my handwriting is pretty poor anyway, you don’t need block capitals and then as you’re writing, as you said, you’ve missed what’s been said, so you sort of, it’s a stressful thing. So, if you can do it, do it well, then you’re going to get loads of great marks, but there are probably easier ways to get your point across and get your marks in the group exercise. So yes, if you’re going to do it, make sure you can do it well. If not, have a think about that.

Brain Sinclair: Yes, have a word at yourself. Yes.

James: Yes, just sort yourself out. So, final comment, and I like the final thought at the end of the book, which is, if it’s right, you’re going to get the job if it’s not, you won’t. Take us through this one and your thinking of why this is the case.

Brain Sinclair: So, I used to get annoyed at another company I worked in where a friend of an employee would apply for the job and not get it. And then I’d be asked to join a call and explain to the senior member of staff and his friend or her friend, and it’s their son or daughter who applied and didn’t get it and was like, well, I don’t understand why little Mark didn’t get the job. He’s top of his class at university, blah, blah. And then you just have to join the call and you’re thinking, well, how am I going to get out of this? How am I going to explain this? And I thought, well, I’m not getting out of it let me just call it as it is. I’m not saying you are dumb, I’m not saying you’re a bad candidate or a poor candidate. I’m not saying you’re useless and they’re never going to succeed in life. All I’m saying is that for this job, perhaps you’re not right for it. You probably have skills in other areas you’re probably good at other things in other ways there is stuff out there for you there is a multitude of jobs.

Do not get hung up on this job, particularly in some cases, students put on a show, they pretend to be, well, if I was going for that company, what should I look like if I, what do they want to see in an ideal candidate? Or if it worked out, how would I be and what would I need to be or do or to be successful? And you’re putting too much pressure on yourself. Just be yourself, go talk the way you talk act the way you act, show the skills and abilities you have and if you get that job, you can just be yourself on that job. If you put on too much of a show and a pretense and you get a job, guess what? For the next two to five years, you’re going to have to either continue with that pretense or pretend to be that person, or hide something about yourself that you are not, and that’s going to bug you. And you’re never going to be to give you’re a hundred percent to that job, and you’re never going to maximize your success. So, don’t beat yourself up If you didn’t get a job maybe that was right, maybe you just weren’t right for that job. Maybe you just, you need to come to just chalk it up to experience think faith has got to get you in hand and that’s karma and you’re good.

And then learn from it. Maybe if you can get some feedback, you might want to kind of just improve in some different areas or stuff that’s in my book that’s the point it’s going to learn from other people’s mistakes and then get the job that is right for you. So yes, don’t pause or do a postmortem on it you’re not terrible, just not right for that job that’s all it is. Move on and then I’m pretty sure in most cases, you will get just a good job that you’re prepared for. And I’ve seen it so many times, especially if late students would connect with me and LinkedIn, the turn up at the assessment center, not get the job, but they’re still connected. And later on I say, “You did get a good job. I knew he would just not right for this company but that looks like a pretty good gigs landed over there well done.” So, don’t beat yourself up if you’re not right for the job, you won’t get it, if you are, trust me, you will be eventually and you will get a job.

James: Brilliant. That is a nice positive place for us to finish the interview on Brian’s so, thank you for that. And as I mentioned, listeners, check all the show notes over at graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes where I will heavily link to Brian’s book and you can get you a copy as well. So, moving on to the weekly staple questions Brian, you know the drill now the time through. How about you share with us a top book recommendation that listeners need to be reading as a pack of their summer holidays?

Brain Sinclair: Yes, summer reading, I would share out a book called Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans, available now for all major retailers. The book is fantastic if you are still at university and thinking about what’s next, what it does it breaks down the whole, what am I going to do next into a more meaningful bite size chunks. So, rather than sitting there thinking, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? What career am I going to choose now? Making it into a big decision the book is all about iterative thinking design so you do a little bit, has a look at it, maybe redesign, try it again, and move forward step by step and breaks things down nicely and gets you to kind of be less daunted by the next step.

It also talks about how to network your way into job and avoiding the whole selection process, how to do well and build connections, and build a sense of community with different people. So, the book is just to help a resource, particularly if you’re thinking what’s next for me? And feeling that’s quite a big question makes it a lot easier and it’s a easy read. These guys are teaching the design thinking course in Stanford for years, so it’s solid kind of background knowledge and experience coming into it, some psychology as well. So, definitely worth the redesigning your life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans highly recommended.

James: Brilliant. And I’ll link to that in the show notes and this cost, Brian is far too modest to plug his own book, but as I said, listeners, make sure that you get your own copy. Brian often people do it, they go, well, if I’ve got to recommend one book, it’s going to do my own so, it’s good that you didn’t do that. So, next question then which website or internet resource would you point listeners to?

Brain Sinclair: I bang out at this all the time, James. I think for students, you absolutely have to be looking at your university’s career’s website. They have just some amazing resources out there for free where people are dedicated to making sure you succeed at the university. So, there’s lots of advice on there, lots of resource that you can download access, there are constantly organizing different employers coming in. They advertised lots of jobs on there as well. So if you are looking, you just don’t know where to start even, I’d highly recommend just go on to your university’s careers pages, and start there. Have a look around and I think you’ll all be fairly pleasantly surprised at how useful that information can be for you to find and get your next job.

James: Definitely. They are so much better than when I was at university, so yes, make use of them and take advantage of everything that they have on offer. And then final question today, Brian, what one tip would you gives listeners that they can implement today to help them on their job search?

Brain Sinclair: So, I was thinking about this one James, and I’m going to talk about, very briefly highlighting your transferables, because we kind of touched on it in the interview and it is mentioned in the book. And one is in terms of transferable skills, I’m going to be cheeky, I’m going to mention three things you just kind of, you can work on now at school, at university, that will be massive benefit to you if you get it on your CV in interviewing a job. And the three of them are relationship building, identifying kind of small improvements or marginal gains and creating social value. So, relationship building is absolutely key in any world of work so talk about, have you joined any groups and worked well with the people in them? Have you resolved any kind of worked project or kind of team issues?

When have you just helped somebody else achieve a goal? So, at school you might think, I’m one of the nerds and I don’t talk to the jocks, I don’t like them. They can stay in that part of the playground, I’m okay, come to the world of work. They could be on your project team or worse, one of them could be managing you. So, you start practicing now and getting on with people you don’t naturally gravitate towards or relate with I guess that is a really strong skill to show and as I said, a CV an interview, definitely into the world of work, so practice those relationship building skills. Also kind of small improvements if you look at something and that’s the way it is, that’s the way it’s done. If you kind of accept that the world wouldn’t change, man, we’d still be in the dark ages.

So, think about where you can make things slightly better. You don’t have to massively overhaul or completely change and make radical changes, that people do that but you can at least look and go, maybe how can I reduce a cost by 10%? Can I negotiate a discount? Can I do this in less time? Can I achieve this a bit quicker? Can I improve a process to deliver kind of a 5, 10% efficient gain efficiency kind of somewhere in how it’s executed? If you are working somewhere and your boss has a million pound budget and you save him 10%, even 1%, man, they’re going to be very grateful for that. So, always look at something that’s a fresh pair of eyes and say, could this be better? Could this be done slightly differently, slightly more efficiently? And if you do that and you can put those ideas, your boss would be very happy.

So, show what you’ve done at school in approach exam or an exercise you’ve had to do or report or something like that. If you can show that ability to kind of constantly deliver those small gains and small improvements, good thing to do. And the last one is creating social value. So when, if you get off your backside and done something for somebody else, have you solved the community problem? Have you become a UK leader, mentored a young person, raised money for a charity, done that litter pick for crying out loud, where have you done something else that shows you’ve got, there’s more to you than just doing what’s good for you? You’re not just a self-focused, self-centered, what’s the phrase? The entitled generation, you show that you know what, I can be motivated, what other people need and how can other people, when you’re in the world of work, when the next piece of work comes down or there’s a kind of a deadline that needs to be met, the boss now knows you’re the kind of person who can drop some work or reprioritize, rearrange few things and get in and help because you know, it’s of benefits that a wider team or somebody else in your team be that good team player who helps and who’s got other people’s backs, who is a bit more supportive.

So, show you’re motivated by helping other people as well because at the end of the day, you’re in most jobs, you’re there to help or serve or deliver a service with somebody else. So, if you are constantly just talking about what’s in it for me that may not land too well. So get that in your CV in an interview and show you kind of do that in the world’s work and you will succeed my friend. So, look at those transferable skills and that’ll help you, grads often not talk about well I’’ve no actual work experience, but yes, you’ve still lived for years, you’ve engaged with different people, you’ve loads of opportunities. Get those kind of articulated, those relationship building skills, those ability to spot those small improvements and you gain have those marginal gains and show we are actually about their creating social value and that will definitely increase your chances of getting any job, I think anyways. Does that help James?

James: Definitely. Now brilliant advice as always, Brian. So thank you for joining us on the show today and what’s the best way that listeners can find out more about you in the book and everything, all that good stuff.

James: So just searching up a LinkedIn, Brian Sinclair, find me on there, and then go to Amazon and search my name. I’ve only got one book, so if you find a recruitment related book by a Brian Sinclair; it’s probably going to be me. So look on LinkedIn, look at the book on Amazon and I’d love to hear what you think if you get it and you read it and you want to put a comment on Amazon, love to hear, I’d love the feedback always useful. So yes, that helps.

James: Brilliant. Thank you very much Brian. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Brain Sinclair: No problem, James been a pleasure.

James: Many thanks to Brian for his insight today, grade A gold plated careers advice as always! Make sure you do check out his book which you can find links to in the shownotes at graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes. He talked earlier about marginal gains and improving as you look for graduate jobs. By buying and reading Brian’s book you will be doing just that, it distills down his 15 years of recruitment advice and will guaranteed make you a better candidate as you look for a graduate job. All for the price of a pint (if you live down South). Now that is everything from me, only thing to say is get in touch if you would like some help as you apply for a graduate job, no matter what stage you are at in the process, I will be able to help, from mock video interviews to assessment centre advice, and everything in between. Check out the shownotes where you can sign up for a free 30 minute coaching call with yours truly where we can discuss…well anything you want. So head to graduatejobpodcast.com/mistakes and check it out. Right that is everything from me, I hope you enjoyed the episode today, but more importantly, I hope you use it, and apply it. See you next time.